Child benefit - when it goes, do my pension credits vanish too...

[bb99]

Just curious.

I think that SAHPs who claim CB are entitled to National Insurance credits.

So, when the CB goes in 2013, will I lose any pension rights or credits too?

If so, had better revise the divorce to be a better off family plan and start being nicer to DH

[ISNT]

You won't answer my question huddspur. I understand how you want the system changed. What I am asking is, with the system how it is now, do you think that women who are taking some time out to look after children should get NI credits, or not.

[huddspur]

No

[ISNT]

Interesting.

So unemployed people - yes
Disabled people - yes
Women who are caring for children and are low income - yes
People who are caring for people who aren't children, unless they are disabled - yes
People in prison - yes

Other women - no

Interesting. I can't for the life of me imagine why you would feel like that.

[huddspur]

The only people on your list who I would give them to are disabled people.

The others on your list wouldn't get them either but as said earlier I would abolish the whole thing if I had my way.

[huddspur]

Sorry I would also give them to carers of disabled people

[ISNT]

You are evading my question.

With things how they are now, do you think that women who take some time out to care for children, and who are not low enough income to claim benefits, should get NI credits?

Or are they the one group of people in society who should be excluded from accessing a full state pension? As they were in the past.

[huddspur]

I don't see how I'm evading your question

Would I give NI credits to someone who isn't paying NI except for a few exceptions? No

Are SAHMs who have a high income the only group what would be exluded by this measure? No it would exclude anyone of working age who isn't working with a few exceptions

[ISNT]

You are not answering my question at all.

You keep answering completely different questions, saying how you think it should be.

In the current system, where unemployed people etc get NI credits, do you think that women who are taking time out of work to raise children should be given pension credits? Or not?

[huddspur]

No they shouldn't

[ISNT]

Very interesting. So out of all the people in society, of all of those working or out of work, out of everyone, you single women (as it almost always is women) who have had children out to not receive a benefit that everyone else receives, irrespective of whether they work or not.

Why do you not believe that raising children has any value to society? Out of interest.

You are perfectly comfortable with the situation highlighted in this article, presumably. Very cheerful with a situation where millions of elderly women live in poverty.

Why is that?

[ISNT]

Hmm millions may be an exaggeration.

An awful lot, then. And with women having very little income in their old age compared to men. This is a good state of affairs? Why?

[huddspur]

I've already outlined earlier in the thread what I would do if I were in charge

And to be honest if you haven't paid in then I'm not too sympathetic that you can't draw out. I don't accept the argument that you can't work and raise children at the same time.

[ISNT]

But why are you giving credits to everybody, except women who are taking time out to raise children?

And you are not sympathetic to the plight of elderly women living in poverty?

Out of interest, what about the credits paid during maternity leave?

[huddspur]

I don't want to give credits to everybody. If we are to keep the national insurance system then I think you should only get credits when you pay NI.

[ISNT]

You stated earlier that you don't think that women who are looking after children should get NI credits, within the current system, where everyone else does.

I understand that you don't like the current system.

However given that is the system that we are working with, it seems harsh to single women who are looking after children out and say that they should not get credits. While everyone else does get credits.

I would have thought that it would be more in line with your thoughts to say that women who are bringing up children should get credits, given all the other groups who do. But you can't bring yourself to say that.

Why not? What is it about women/children that leads you to want to punish them in this way?

Why do you have no sympathy with the plight of elderly women living in poverty?

[huddspur]

I would give them to single women looking after children provided they were working and at least paying some NI, just not to people who aren't working and so paying nothing in.

I have some sympathy for women in poverty and believe that the Government should keep with the current income related state pension but if we are having a contribution based system then it stands to reason that people who have made insufficient pension contributions don't get the full pension.

[ISNT]

So you would allow women who are working and paying NI to benefit from the state pension. That's very big of you

The current state pension isn't income related. it's much more complicated than that. People who have paid a certain amount + years NI conts qualify for full state pension. People who have paid some NI/years but not enough qualify for reduced state pension. In previous generations, society expected women to give up paid work when they had children. Some jobs ceased womens employment automatically when they married / had children. That was longer ago but there will be women who experienced that alive now. These women therefore have reduced pensions as they have not paid enough in. There is a mechanism by which people on very low incomes can get a bit extra - I think this was brought in due to this problem (lots of elderly women in poverty).

I cannot see how anyone can shout that these women deserve a reduced state pension.

[ISNT]

I also cannot understand how anyone can say that in the current situation, pretty much everyone in every situation has their NI conts kept up, but this should be removed from one specific group, women who are taking time out to look after children. You have not been clear about why in your opinion this group is less entitled to assistance than any other group in society.

Why do you not count caring for children as caring? What do you think is involved with the job of looking after children, if not caring?

Do you believe that women should have NI conts paid while they are on mat leave?

[huddspur]

I'm working from the idea that if you have a contribution based system then you have to make a contribution in order to access it. If you've contributed through NI that you should get it if you haven't then largely you shouldn't. Obviously I'm not advocating that people should left to starve but they should not get a full state pension when they haven't paid for it.

With regards to the current system I've already stated what I would like to see happen.

[ISNT]

You keep pulling back from my questions.

You have said that under the current system, as it is, you would like to see NI credits removed from women who are taking time out to look after their children. I don't understand why you're singling them out in this way.

Do you think that women should get NI credits while on mat leave?

[huddspur]

Yeah I'd give you NI credits on maternity leave as long as you continued to pay NI.

I don't want to single out SAHP, I want to stop people who are not paying NI getting NI credits.

[SnoozyLucy]

I'd say anyone doing some kind of work (bringing up a child is work) or unavoidably prevented from working should receive NI credits, yes it's a contribution based system but those who have an 'excuse' to be temporarily out of the system should be protected (especially when many will go on to pay NI again but may be unlucky and just miss the required years).

Just to play devil's advocate huddspur and not implying anything about my views but am interested to know why you seem to value carers of a disabled child (or adult) as more 'excusable' or more valuable than carers of a non-disabled child or any other group mentioned?

[huddspur]

I value carers for the disabled because as a parent you are obliged to care for that child but caring for a disabled child goes beyond that.

[ISNT]

?

People who are paying NI don't get NI credit AFAIK. NI credits are for people who are not paying NI.

So would you provide NI credit for people on mat leave when they are not paying NI?

You have singled out parents, more than once.

I also don't understand why caring for a child does not count as "caring".

[SnoozyLucy]

Well even parents of disabled children chose to have a child, although obviously didn't choose the disability - if they'd chosen to take time out to bring their child up from birth would you only give them NI credits when the care the child needed became over and above that of the average child?