What do you think of this book list?

[maamajullah]

Hi everyone!I intend to homeschool but my dd's just 16months old and ds is 18days old. However i want to buy and start reading books that'll help me. Pls kindly review my list and tell me if there's any book i wont find useful or if there's any i ought to add to the list.
*Home Learning year by year:Rebecca Rupp
*Home-schooling the early years:Linda Dobson
*The Ultimate book of Homeschooling ideas:Linda Dobson
*One to one:Gareth Lewis
*The unschooling handbook:Mary Griffith
*How children learn at home:Alan Thomas
*Free Range Education:Terri Dowty
*Educating your child at home:Alan Thomas
*School is not compulsory
*The teenage liberation handbook:Grace llewellyn
*Dumbing us down:John Taylor Gatto

[onwardandoutward]

Great additions, tin hat lady!!! We're very much autonomous so yeah, that's the type of literature which would spring to my mind.

Is the latest Thomas/Pattison book autonomous swinging? - I guess so - I think Pattison is probably an autonomous preferrer.

I'm at your definition of unbalanced though - when you said "this list is unbalanced", I was going on reading (without having noticed who was writing the post), waiting for an "and here are several books about how marvellous almost all state schools are, explaining why you should be enrolling your children there toot sweet" (with apologies to you) and

At the risk of further autonomous-pushing imbalance, I like what Jan Fortune Wood says in "Doing in their way", but it is not terrifically readable IMO.

I suppose the other thing is that, as an autonomous family or a formal family or a middle-ish family, when one is doing curricula based things or formal learning of whatever kind, with workbooks or with, what's it called, Festivals, Family and Food or some other Waldorf-esque material as inspiration (NB I really like that book though I'm not at all Waldorf-y in real life), then it's not actually the fact that the book is relevant to home education that would spring to mind, it's that there are various concepts you think your child is ready and willing to be introduced to and, oh my God, there's a whole series of Thomas the Tank Engine workbooks which they are just going to devour!!! Or whatever. So there are all sorts of HE relevant materials which I wouldn't think of putting on a list like this just because they are in my house and part of daily life but not with anything explicitly HEish about them

[onwardandoutward]

"We seem to have moved from the OP which didn't have John Holt-I am just saying that I don't think he is that important for reading matter."

go read "Teach Your Own". You'll change your mind about whether some of Holt's ideas are still relevant! And NO it is NOT based on his observations of schools in the 1950s and 1960s, it is based on his subsequent 25 years as a vociferous advocate of home-based education.

[Runnerbean]

"and here are several books about how marvellous almost all state schools are, explaining why you should be enrolling your children there toot sweet"

Is there such a list of books?

[juuule]

Teach Your Own on Holtgws.com. Revised and updated, 2003.

[juuule]

Pat Farenga.

[onwardandoutward]

No, runnerbean, I can't imagine that there is such a list, but that would have been a properly balanced sort of list to provide (in that BBC-esque mantra of providing "balanced" coverage of all issues) giggles naughtily

OK, I think I have put enough halloweeny silliness in this thread now

[Fillyjonk]

With John Holt, I'd actually read his later books

Abbey is actually right that the first two are an analysis of what was wrong with 1950s US education.

School reform was a big deal in the 1960s, and a lot of changes were made. Many homeschoolers, and Holt himself, felt these to be fairly superficial changes which did not address him substantive criticisms of the school system as a whole. Holt argued that school, by its very existance, necessarily separates learning from living and doing. However, when the first two books were written he was still inclined towards school reform and so the idea of school as a fundementally bad idea was not well developed. The first two books are not, imo, a good starting point for Holts ideas on home education.

The books I would personally read are Learning All the Time and , for practical ideas, What Do I Do Monday?

[AbbeyA]

I thought OP had a good selection. She is thinking about it early and so it makes sense to read about what other people have done. I think that the chances that she will follow the methods used in USA secondary schools in the late 50's/early60's are nil, so I can't see her point in reading them!

[Fillyjonk]

None of his books are about secondary schools.

How Children Learn is really about how children learn in the preschool and early school years. 90% of the book is about children, mainly his own nieces and nephews, and how they react to different situations, how they seem to learn, etc.

The school he taught in, which appears in the book, was not a typical 1950s American school, but a very progressive, small, fee paying school, more similar to the British schools of the 70s (trendy teaching methods, project work, etc ;-0 ), or a proper Small School. So his criticsms are of a learning situation in a school that most of us would see as a pretty good one.

As I have said, only his first two books are really about schools at all anyway.

But we have had this debate many many times now. Could we reduce it to specifics? Which books of his have you read? What is it specifically that you object to in his books? Is it that they were written a long time ago? That won't really wash. A lot of helpful things were said and written 50 , or even more, years ago. The human condition has not changed THAT much in half a century, and kids are still, IMO, fundementally the same, imo. We al just seem to go round and round in circles here.

OP, I'd give Holt a go. I mean, WHAT do you have to lose here? He's pretty easy to read. At the least you'll form an opinion on him. But as I say, his later books are more relevant IMO. The only reason for the earlier ones being better known is that they sometimes appear

[AbbeyA]

I will have to re read him! I was just astounded to find that he has such a following in HE circles when he was pretty old hat when I read him years ago! I think his message was well and truly taken on board years ago when his message was the 'in thing' with schools. I think they have moved on a long way from then and I would far rather read Shirley Clarke who is the present 'in thing'.
I won't make any more comments until I have located my battered old copy and re read it.

[onwardandoutward]

ABBEY - no one is saying reread How Children Fail or How Children Learn, although there is value in both. The bits of John Holt's writings which are most most most relevant to HE are the bits which postdate his complete disillusionment with the institution of schooling, even in its most liberal forms. Please look back up this thread for suggested titles.

And I would reiterate the point about old ideas not necessarily being old hat. William Godwin is still a core writer for libertarian thinkers, despite being over 200 years old.

[AbbeyA]

I will read him again-I just think you can manage a very good book list without him!

[onwardandoutward]

But how can you possibly know that you can manage a very good book list about HE without John Holt's HE related writings when you have not read any of John Holt's HE related writings?

I know I'm being a bit snarky, but really,

[AbbeyA]

I have promised to re-read him before commenting again!

[maamajullah]

I'm adding The Well-Trained Mind: A Guide to Classical Education at Home, as well. thanx maverick for your list.

[maamajullah]

And a John Holt book. But should i start with How Children Learn/Teach your own?

[maamajullah]

Thanx y'all for ur very helpful info. here's my new list:

*Home Learning year by year:Rebecca Rupp
*Home-schooling the early years:Linda Dobson
*The Ultimate book of Homeschooling ideas:Linda Dobson
*One to one:Gareth Lewis
*The unschooling handbook:Mary Griffith
*How children learn at home:Alan Thomas
*Free Range Education:Terri Dowty
*Educating your child at home:Alan Thomas
*School is not compulsory
*The teenage liberation handbook:Grace llewellyn
*Dumbing us down:John Taylor Gatto
*The Well Trained Mind: A Guide to Classical Education at Home. Wise and Bauer
*How Children Learn/Teach your own: John Holt

Is it balanced now Maverick?

[carpetwiggle]

"I think that Teach Your Own, which is PAtrick Farenga's collection of various of John Holt's later writings, with PF commentary, is a very good representation of where John Holt was in his educational philosophy of the 1980s, with PF updating it to be relevant to the 21st century (publication date = 2003). I would recommend that anyone reads that before they assume that they know what home educators mean when they say "John Holt is very helpful and interesting"."

onwardandoutward - What you're basically saying above is that if you say "John Holt is helpful and interesting", no one should assume they know what you mean until they've read one specific book of his that you aren't actually going to tell them about. But what if they actually read the others first (as I did following such general, rather than specific, positive recommendations of John Holt, combined with Amazon reviews) and end up thinking that home educators avoiding schools based on John Holt are making a mistake because his early books are based on such out of date schools? And what if the 'they' reading those books are people with young children considering home education (as I was)? He actually ended up on the 'factors against home education' list for me after I bought his first book based on general 'John Holt is a top HE bloke' type recommendations (he has since moved lists as I've learnt more, but what if I had left my researches there?). Be careful when blaming your audience for not knowing which John Holt books are best, or which ones home educators mean. It would be better to be clear from the start.

[onwardandoutward]

point taken Carpetwiggle

[maverick]

Re-enforced tin hat on!

I'd like to make a strong recommendation that even if you plan to HE your children autonomously you add explicit phonics reading instruction to whatever else you do.

Home educators have to provide their children with a 'suitable education': A suitable education has been defined as that which prepares children for life in a modern, civilised society and enables them to achieve their full potential.

Hard evidence shows that a significant minority of children cannot learn to read with the whole-language / 'immersion in books' method.

With that in mind, I suggest that all potential home educators (and all HEers with children having problems with reading , writing and spelling) add the following book to their reading list: 'Why Children Can't Read' by Prof. Diane McGuinness -out of print but available from Amazon Marketplace and Abebooks.

[onwardandoutward]

have just amazoned it for 33p plus P&P, Maverick!

[maverick]

I hope you find it a worthwhile investment, onwardandoutward

[onwardandoutward]

Well, if not, I'll be furious at the considerable financial outlay

[maamajullah]

Hi!i just came across "Educating children at home" Alan thomas. please how is it different from Educating your child at home:Alan Thomas?

[maamajullah]

And i'm also confused about "School is not compulsory" by Jan Fortune-wood and "School is not compulsory" by Education Otherwise. Pleas can someone shed some light on this? Are they the same? cuz the covers look the same too save one is green and the other is blue.