Engineering and Science Admissions Test (ESAT)

[hedwigsmum]

Does anyone have DCs with experience of this test? My DS may be doing it for 2025 entry and is thinking about how to prepare for it.

[hedwigsmum]

Or perhaps it is new for 2024? https://home.pearsonvue.com/About/News/2024/Cambridge-University-and-Imperial-College-London.aspx

[Stockpot]

I believe our children, 2025 entry, will be the first cohort taking this test. So there is not much in the way of specific preparation that can be done, and we need to watch closely for the times to sign up etc. our think our children need to take it this May.

[NCTDN]

Do you think it's just for Cambridge and imperial ?

[Stockpot]

Yes. That’s what I am reading.

[JustHereWithMyPopcorn]

Anyone applying to Cambridge or Imperial for those courses will be A* students. Why do they need more tests? That cohort will be beyond the Covid assessed grades and back on normal exams.

[WarraK]

You just answered your own question. Yes, they will all have very high grades. The subject tests help distinguish between that Astar student and the next. (But as part of a whole picture including PS, GCSE's, contextual info and, if you get that far, interview).

[TizerorFizz]

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn I suspect because not all high grade students think like engineers. Back in the day DH wasn’t academically gifted but could ace engineering because he understands engineering concepts and therefore solutions. He was very lucky to have a school that championed engineers and pioneered engineering A level when it actually was great prep for a degree. Being good at maths isn’t the same as being an engineer.

DH was a Chartered Engineer at 25. I think he took the exams at 24 and had all CPD in place. He would not have got into C or I, but quite frankly, DC truly don’t need to! These popular unis might need to filter applicants by testing (as DH does when grads apply) but DC really can be just as successful elsewhere.

[JustHereWithMyPopcorn]

Good points. I'm just feeling a little antsy as my Yr 11 DS wants to do chemical engineering which seems to require a minimum of A A A almost everywhere, and I think once a couple of universities start the testing they will all join in. My older DS had to do the LNAT for law and that was bad enough!

[JustHereWithMyPopcorn]

Sorry that should read as 2 x A plus an A. MN has turned my s to bold.

[JustHereWithMyPopcorn]

And again. You know what I mean I'm sure. 😂

[poetryandwine]

@TizerorFizz made a good point: thinking like an engineer is a special skill even for top students. A test to focus on engineering aptitude might make sense, depending on whether Cambridge and Imperial Engineering tutors believe they need more or different information to select the best students.

But according to the link provided by OP this test will be used by a spectrum of Science and Engineering disciplines, including Cambridge Nat Sci and Imperial Physics. It cannot focus overmuch on Engineering aptitudes.

I suspect this is a reaction to grade inflation, particularly with respect to Maths and FM grades. Intuitively I don’t like it, but insofar as it adds some objectivity to the selection process I reluctantly applaud it. I wish your DC success

[awesomeaardvark]

It seesm like practise materials will be available from next month:https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/how/science-engineering-admission-test

[TizerorFizz]

@poetryandwine You might well be right . It’s a shame if it’s very general though.

[TizerorFizz]

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield are AAA for chemical engineering MEng. Excellent engineering departments.

[JustHereWithMyPopcorn]

Very useful to know, thanks @TizerorFizz

[shockeditellyou]

Urgh, this is depressing. Yet more exams and another way to entrench disadvantage.

[RampantIvy]

People shouldn't get too hung up on Cambridge, Imperial etc for engineering. As @TizerorFizz has stated, other universities have excellent, if not better, engineering departments with state of the art facilities and excellent industry links.

Sheffield, for example, owns the https://www.amrc.co.uk/

DH went to Sheffield many moons ago and became a world expert in his field.

[poetryandwine]

@shockeditellyou

Urgh, this is depressing. Yet more exams and another way to entrench disadvantage.

I hope you are wrong about this. That’s the reason I ‘reluctantly applaud’ the test, at least until we see evidence that it perpetuates disadvantage.

I think Cambridge and Imperial are looking for a level of talent that can overcome a bad background and that can’t be coached. I am dubious whether any test can achieve these aims but it just might be better than humans trying to select from amongst too many A stars and inevitably being drawn to pupils who have been coached to present themselves well.

Time will tell

[shockeditellyou]

@poetryandwine

I hope you are wrong about this. That’s the reason I ‘reluctantly applaud’ the test, at least until we see evidence that it perpetuates disadvantage.

I think Cambridge and Imperial are looking for a level of talent that can overcome a bad background and that can’t be coached. I am dubious whether any test can achieve these aims but it just might be better than humans trying to select from amongst too many A stars and inevitably being drawn to pupils who have been coached to present themselves well.

Time will tell

But by putting in an extra hurdle in the form of a test, you're already adding inequality. Many schools can barely keep the lights on, let alone offer training and coaching in an extra test. All of those extra tests (ESAT, STEP, BMAT etc) benefit kids who have help to navigate the system, pay the entrance fee and can actually get to the test centre.

[poetryandwine]

I agree with you about the extra hurdles, @shockeditellyou

We can only hope that C and I will be talking up support for test preparation and how to overcome these barriers in their outreach. For example, the entrance fee can be waived, there is accessibility for those who meet the criteria, etc. Pearson has many test centres. Hopefully anyone considering these universities can make it to one.

Coaching is the big one. Hopefully at least at first the playing field will be fairly level. I do think pre-interview testing is an improvement on post-interview testing (STEP). And I think these universities owe it to their applicants to level the playing field with more explicit supporting materials than we’ve seen for STEP. (Despite the heroic efforts of at least one Mumsnetter.)

I agree it is far from perfect but at least experimenting with this step prior to the introduction of human bias at interview, which is where MC privilege really starts to show, seems to me worthwhile.

[TizerorFizz]

@poetryandwine The point is though, that certainly for some engineering disciplines, Oxbridge is no obvious advantage. I don’t know what percentage of their engineering grads have actually become CEng via Civils. I have a suspicion it’s not huge.

Great candidates come from many universities who have fantastic engineering departments. There’s no need for anyone, at the moment, who wants to be a civil engineer to bother with the tests at all. That should be the real message. The A star type candidate will fly elsewhere and C snd I do not have a monopoly of great engineers or an umbilical cord to the best jobs. Many Imperial grads won’t work in the UK anyway. So anyone who doesn’t want to take more tests really isn’t disadvantaged although I can see where this accusation comes from. I would take it as a bonus!

[poetryandwine]

I agree, Tizer. Plenty of great options to choose from if you don’t want to do this test

[poetryandwine]

Posted too soon. I would like to see degrees valued for their actual content

[TizerorFizz]

@poetryandwine I think many students do value their degrees in engineering but also see DC, particularly at Oxbridge, Durham and Bristol, applying for high earning “city” jobs. They then compare starting salaries. Even well known engineering firms don’t get close to London finance starting salaries.

Then theres the huge emphasis on maths in engineering. Maths can take grads into so many jobs the engineers find their degrees are very portable. When DH was at uni, all of his engineering friends became engineers. One later went into business with a friend which had no connection with engineering and they sold the company for multi millions years later and he never worked again. It became a household name. Overall though DH felt grad engineers back then wanted engineering jobs and now a substantial minority don’t. I think certain unis do tend to have more grads that put engineering behind them after 4 years. Dc simply change their minds about their career.

[Revengeofthepangolins]

These aren't new hurdles. Cambridge has had entrance tests for engineering for ages. It is just a change in test. There is no particular reason why unis that haven't tested would suddenly start now just because Cambridge has changed their test.