Engineering for girl (with very high grades)

[Au79]

Dd has heart set on applying to Cambridge (I know, I know, she is doing this all wrong). But she’s going to apply there, end of discussion, she says! With her exam performance and other activities throughout school so far, she has a good shot at it. It will be her firm, as it stands atm.

My question is, where else can she apply that will be both prestigious and really interesting? I gather she needs an MENg to be properly qualified, but I don’t know. She is maybe interested in Bioengineering in the longer term, and quite keen on something like a stint abroad or at least a placement, as part of the course.

I don’t want her to end up like her sister, with three offers but all for the same (high) grades. Sis was set on a super demanding subject, or nothing (in the end she got the grades but it was super stressful waiting for results and not knowing where she was going until 2 weeks before). I want dd2 to have a proper insurance, with actual lower offer grades in the event of dropping a grade, where she won’t be too sad about getting second choice.

Not keen on London, we live there and she wants to leave home for uni.

TIA

[EcclesThePeacock]

through one A star and an A at Soton and manc,

Sorry, one a star and 2as!

(And for regulars on the HE board, I'm usually ErrolTheDragon)

[OKBobble]

Can I ask by what you mean in the OP - I know I know she's doing this all wrong?

[BubblesBuddy]

Bristol is ranked 1 for General Engineering in the Complete University Guide. Above Cambridge, Oxford and Durham. However some disciplines of engineering are so large that employers often want specific degrees and work experience in their discipline and are less impressed by people who have not studied the precise disciple for 4 years. Civics and Strucural Engineering would be one area. There’s little need to do General first and often generalists go into finance jobs anyway! Certainly from Oxford and Cambridge. Numerate problem solvers are sought after.

Employers won’t choose women for the sake of it. They won’t be favoured over men if they don’t show the required attributes for the job. Many employers will want the best they can get irrespective of sex, race, colour, ethnicity etc. That’s fair.

[EcclesThePeacock]

I don't know about how other Gen. Eng. MEng courses are configured , but Cambridge is very much generalise for the first two years, then specialise for the last two.

In terms of the sex ratio, Cambridge is at the higher end of percentages of female students (~25%) . (It doesn't AFAIK go in for accepting lower grades for any demographic group).
Engineering courses in the U.K. overall have only ~15% women students.

[BubblesBuddy]

The vast majority of uk Engineering courses are not general and that’s for a reason. 2 years isn’t long enough.

[MrsEricBana]

She won't get onto one of the top courses without FM. I know this from bitter experience. Bio engineering without chemistry? She needs to do double maths, physics and chemistry ideally, as others have said. Plus Oxbridge will only consider her if she's got a range of glittering GCSEs.

[hellsbells99]

I don't necessarily agree that FM is essential but it is certainly desirable. It also makes the first year easier. A lot of schools do not offer FM, so for the majority of courses it is not mandatory - whereas maths and physics generally are.
As I said in a previous post, DD only took FM at AS level and that was in upper 6th. It didn't stop her passing the aptitude test for Oxford and being offered interviews - but she had already decided it wasn't the course for what she wanted to do. She got offers for all her other choices. She did make sure she did the mechanics modules in maths - are the new maths and FM maths A levels still structured like that?

[GnomeDePlume]

hellsbells99 from DD's experience what you say about FM being desirable is absolutely right. As a 4th A level it is about studying the FM course rather than the A level result.

OP I am guessing your DD is in year 11? Dont be surprised if what she wants evolves over the next months. Both my DD's degree course choices changed as they started their A levels and started to seriously look around at different degree courses.

[EcclesThePeacock]

As a 4th A level it is about studying the FM course rather than the A level result.

Except at Cambridge where the offer (afaik) always includes A* in fm and physics. The exception would be if you'd been to a school which didn't offer fm but I believe in such cases they'd expect you to have done appropriate extra maths by other means.

[BubblesBuddy]

It is perfectly possible to do a BEng without FM. However the route to being Chartered is likely to be slower.

[BubblesBuddy]

I think, Eccles, your last sentence makes it clear why DC in disadvantaged areas attending schools where FM isn’t offered are under represented at Oxbridge. The notion that they should somehow do it themselves whilst others have Expert tuition for FM and MAT shows exactly why we have problems getting some DC into the best courses. I hope there are more foundation courses for these DC put in place by our best universities because doing extra maths by another means clearly involves money and it is an unreasonable stance when other DC have every advantage to get a place. It’s just not fair, is it?

[EcclesThePeacock]

It's not fair, but the fault lies in the unequal provision of secondary education.

Yes, better access to foundation courses - possibly as the third free year of sixth form, maybe in conjunction with local universities to reduce the need for an extra year of loans - is needed.

Cambridge is working on introducing a 'transitional year'
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/oct/01/cambridge-university-transition-programme-disadvantaged-students

This is straying rather away from the OP, however, who has a high-achieving child. If she wants to try for Cambridge engineering and can do FM it's pretty much a no-brainer that she should.

[Tuftytail]

Just for reassurance DC got offers for MEng from all 5 choices including Bristol and Bath despite not having done FM at a selective school where it is offered. So Cambridge aside, it is not a necessary requirement though may well be helpful once at uni.

[questions2008]

To answer your question OP - what is FM - when I took it at A-Level, I did the regular Maths A-Level in one year rather than the two and then the FM A-Level the second year which was a whole other A-Level worth of content and exams. If your DD's school follows this method, she will essentially be doing maths on double-speed for the two years - it's lots of work but if she enjoys the challenge it really takes her mathematical fluency up a notch.

The maths content of the first year of many science degrees (I did Natural Sciences at Cambridge) is mostly the maths covered in FM A-Level.

[BubblesBuddy]

Eccles: many schools just won’t have enough pupils who are strong enough in maths to offer FM. It’s not that they a poor schools. I wasn’t sure if the OPs DD has the option of FM. If DD can do it, it’s better to have it. However not everywhere requires it and there are sometimes opportunities to make up for lack of FM when at university. There are lots of opportunities for studying abroad too so look in depth at the course content. With study abroad there might be a different course number so check out every course.

[noblegiraffe]

It’s not having pupils who are strong enough for Further Maths that’s the problem, it’s not having the teachers.

[BubblesBuddy]

Not where I live. We have 11 plus and few in the secondary schools could do FM. If they could, they would need to move to a grammar. There are huge numbers of schools where they wouldn’t get a class for FM. If 40% of pupils are getting a 5 or above in Maths, and that’s a fairly usual stat, then how many can actually do FM? Very few..I have no doubt there are not enough teachers either!

[GnomeDePlume]

DD was fortunate, her school was pretty dire in many subjects but thanks to two teachers was strong in Maths where the student had the capability. Once those two teachers retire (which will be very soon) then the Maths provision will struggle.

[SurelyNotOhReally]

OP, if she wants somewhere that will give a genuine Insurance offer, give a fantastic campus based experience and be highly regarded by employers then do look at Loughborough.

[EcclesThePeacock]

If you're predicted grades sufficient for Cambridge engineering, you may be able to find a genuine insurance offer at somewhere like Southampton - for EEEng the standard offer for the MEng was A*AA but they included a backup of AAA getting you onto the BEng course - which is interchangeable depending on first year results. A difference of 2 grades versus the Cambridge offer seemed about right to DD. (And 2 years ago Soton offered guaranteed accommodation to insurance offer holders too - perfect).

[maryso]

I don't know anyone/'s DC who went into bioengineering at or soon after university, however do know quite a few who went to Cambridge and Imperial for various engineering courses. A fair few years ago, at least one public school was already floating the view that Imperial was better for some than Cambridge for engineering. However that's flipped to and fro, either is respectable.

Interestingly the ones who went to Cambridge were, a few years after MEng, either in investment banking or unemployed still looking for their place in the world of work. The Imperial graduates were engaged at impressive places across the globe on interesting engineering work. DS says that you could see that coming, given he knew them from young, and the Cambridge ones would have struggled at Imperial because they either needed much more support and/or were not really engineers in the way they thought. I think nowadays it is entirely rightly more down to the person and their motivations than where they studied. There is not a lot of propping up in the world of work, even if your parents did everything they thought was right, up to that point.

I think if my child was an engineer to their core and had the choice of any uni, I would look closely at whether Cambridge or Imperial would suit. There are plenty of studios and flats in London where they could stay if they wanted their own space. For excellence or need also comes financial support from both universities.

[EcclesThePeacock]

either is respectable.

We have many engineering courses in the U.K. which are more than 'respectable'!

[Dancingdreamer]

In answer to the question “where else can she apply which is both prestigious and interesting”. Having gone through a similar search for my DD here are my thoughts. The obvious answer for prestige is Imperial which is almost as highly ranked as Cambridge (but obviously in London so may not suit). Otherwise I would agree with Bubbles and suggest Bristol. For a university with a strong reputation for engineering but with lower offers, I would suggest Birmingham (often give unconditional offers if you firm them) or maybe Bath. Manchester used to be strong also but I don’t hear much about the university these days. However it is a popular university city with a vibrant lifestyle.

[FriendOrFaux]

Dd has also applied for engineering-nuclear. She has Imperial as her firm and Newcastle as a back up.
She's a boarder now so although I know she'll be fine being away from home I'm nervous about her being in London tbh. Family member studied Geography at Imp so she's advising dd re accommodation, things to do/avoid etc.

I'd echo others who suggested Bristol, that's where I went(not engineering though- I only scraped a C in maths )

[EcclesThePeacock]

Manchester used to be strong also but I don’t hear much about the university these days

It's higher up the world QS rankings than some of the others mentioned. It was one of DDs 5 UCAS choices - she was impressed by the department but not so keen on the university location