Applying for medicine - how important is d of e, really?

[Pumpkintopf]

Hoping for some advice from those of you whose DC's have gone off to be med students or anyone with experience of admissions-

I understand that top grade a levels are a prerequisite of course, plus UKCAT/BMAT scores, performance at interview and relevant work experience.

My question is, does anyone take the Duke of Edinburgh award into account, or perhaps more to the point would it be a disadvantage not to have achieved at least silver, working towards gold? Ds's school does not currently offer it so wondering how much I should encourage them to do so.

Sorry I know it sounds ridiculous but I know how competitive med school applications are and don't want him to miss out for the want of something that we could potentially fix.

Thanks very much.

[Serin]

I think the NCS scheme looks just as good on a CV as DofE and as it is completed in just 2 weeks it is far less intrusive on study time.
Cant believe some people are disparaging of entry level jobs like shop work (or even better McDonalds), it is an excellent way of learning to communicate with people from all backgrounds, it teaches organisation, team work, commitment, how to follow instructions, how to lead others, and being on ones feet for hours at a time is not that dissimilar to the NHS!!

[MedSchoolRat]

Maybe I'm an outlier (wouldn't be the first time).

I heard a good DoE story recently. And it wasn't even Gold. Because of things that went wrong (which I don't actually wish on any DoE expedition).

Shadowing is good for making sure they really want this career. Rather than believe it's all exciting Grey's Anatomy or jolly Scrubs. Ultimately though, they are just watching when they shadow. Or as a dementia friend they mostly listen. Working with kids they may teach a bit, but still very limited responsibility & pressure.

Hands on pretend-medical experiences like Medic days, 2 week jollies to Tanzanian HIV hospices or whatever: I guess they show sustained interest. But not widely available (& no actual responsibility for outcomes) so not very interesting.

I quite like asking about their customer service jobs when the applicants can talk about what they genuinely did, learnt, coped with, had to take responsibility for got yelled at about. This can be great for showing true potential. They are only 18yo, so we have to assess potential. Our course is quite reflective, we like people who can describe how and what they learned (non-academic skills), including from mistakes, and who have good self-awareness of their weak points.

[HostessTrolley]

My d has had four interviews this year for medicine. She hasn’t done d of e, and hasn’t had time for sustained volunteering in a care home. She is doing a sports apprenticeship and has put in extra time to get a coaching qualification and coaches at her club, is a senior prefect, and has a part time waitressing job. She’s managed a few days of medicine-related work shadowing (it’s really hard to come by) and has been abroad for a couple of weeks on a medical volunteering programme.

At interview, her job was by far and away the thing that she used to illustrate answers to questions regarding attributes, there are so many things they develop and display. She also had a few anecdotes from her work experience of things that she’d reflected on and done further reading afterwards. The main part of the overseas experience they were interested in was that she had organised and funded it herself (from her minimum wage job!) although she did use it as a bit of ‘compare and contrast’ to illustrate points. She did have an amazing and thought provoking time though.

At the end of the day I think the medical school want to one that candidates know realistically what a doctor does, what personal qualities they need, and how they themselves can demonstrate possessing or working towards this. D of E, Olympiads, being head boy/girl, are all very commendable but are not really requirements.

[CowJumping]

good discussion points around whether gold would be achievable and whether DS feels it might help him at interview

I'm worried that your approach to this (and your DS') is the tail wagging the dog.

Things such as DoE and other non-A Level activities are to demonstrate aptitude for the kind of work that medicos go into. Not there as "something to talk about in an interview."

As other posters have said, working or volunteering in a healthcare situation is far more significant for Medicine applications.

And not doing it simply to get points on the CV etc, but doing it out of genuine interest in this sort of work. Caring for people in frail health, learning how to deal with people in vulnerable situations, and also demonstrating preparedness to work extremely hard in sometimes difficult or unpleasant situations.

Not for "something to talk about in interviews."

[Haffdonga]

CowJumping - you're right that D of E is Not for "something to talk about in interviews."

Nevertheless the activities you do towards your D o E are what you will probably talk about at interview (the experiences you've gained through volunteering, leading a hike etc). As a potential med student you'll probably be doing some useful volunteering anyway but D of E can also add experiences you wouldn't otherwise have had.

Before his interviews, ds did a fair bit of prep thinking through his experience and examples of stuff he could talk about to demonstrate skills. E.g
*Leadership and initiative - leading his group on the D of E expedition in torrential rain and a violent storm to overnight shelter in a bin shed!

*Teamwork and dealing with conflict - playing in a band (his Dof E skill), negotiating 'musical differences' and a smashed guitar

*Teaching, plus patience etc - teaching map reading to a group of scouts with ADHD and dyslexia (he did Scouts for the chance to do D of E)

*Time management and dealing with stress - doing all of the above

• Something you're proud of - see above
  
• A time you made a mistake - see above etc etc
  
  In fact, according to DS he never specifically mentioned D of E in any of his interviews or on his UCAS form, but doing it certainly gave him experience to 'reflect on'.

[CowJumping]

Yes, all that understood Haffdonga - and I ask those sorts of questions when I'm interviewing UCAS applicants (not in Medicine, though).

I was responding to the OP who seemed to have quite a game-playing mentality about really important actual skills. NOt just "Oh I'll do a DoE because it'll help me get a place."

Cart before horse, tail wagging the dog sort of stuff. And ultimately , an unsatisfactory attitude going into a profession which must put other people at the centre.

As a university tutor, I really detest this sort of game-playing: it's disingenuous and loses sight of the purpose of education, both for the individual and the society which educates them.

[ErrolTheDragon]

he is particularly interested in research and genetics rather than the patient side

Aren't there other routes into that sort of research which maybe would be a better alternative if he doesn't have much of a 'vocation' for medicine? He'll presumably want to look into those possibilities for his 5th UCAS choice anyway.

[redtulip12]

We've been told not to even include it on a personal statement!

[Pumpkintopf]

Strong words @CowJumping !

Apologies if I came across in that way. My DS is fully committed to this choice but we have been made very aware that medicine is an extremely competitive field and with limited time and resources (Ds's school doesn't offer d of e for example) I simply wanted to see advice from posters more knowledgeable than I as to whether it might rule him out which would be a shame as he is intending to get all the relevant work experience, just wanted to know if lack of d of e would be a reason for rejection.

I'm surprised you see this as game playing and detestable.

[Pumpkintopf]

@ErrolTheDragon yes he's also looking into biomedical.

[Pumpkintopf]

@redtulip12 that's interesting!

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[mumsneedwine]

Most medical schools don't even read the PS anymore. The best reason for doing something like DofE is because it's fun. A lot of Unis said at open days that they like part time jobs as they show commitment and customer service experience - being a doctor is very much about the 'customer'. Some do ask for evidence of work experience but lots just want you to talk about what you have learned at interview. So fretting about things to put on the PS is less important for Medicine these days and acing your UKCAT/BMAT is vital to maximise your options. Apply strategically where your profile fits best, and don't be a Uni snob. If your UKCAT is not great then don't try Bristol now as their cut off this year was high, whereas they used to be v PS heavy. Don't listen to gossip but visit the Unis and listen to the Admissions talks as they change their selection for interview criteria often and info goes out of date fast. And good luck, my DD is a first year so went through all this last year. She spent Monday cutting muscle out of a cadavers chest ready to crack the rib cage open. And yesterday she was in consultations at a GPS. She loves it.

[Haffdonga]

We've been told not to even include it on a personal statement!

I was told by an admissions tutor that in their opinion D of E on the personal statement simply flags up middle class privilege and gains no credit at all. As I said, ds didn't mention his at all but is still glad he did it.

So basically ... your ds should do it if he wants and not if he doesn't.

[Pumpkintopf]

@mumsneedwine and @Haffdonga thank you!! That sums it up nicely.

Congratulations to your Dd, and great to hear she's enjoying it so much.

[lljkk]

PS mentioned 8x on the Leeds medical sch pages (random choice)
medicinehealth.leeds.ac.uk/medicine-undergraduate-mbchb/doc/applying

Ooh this is good! Lots of mention of PS here, they seem to be part of the process for many med schools.

[BubblesBuddy]

They are read for medicine. It is totally untrue to say they are not part of the process. Other elements may have much more weight and importance but that doesn’t mean they are not read!

Not doing DofE isn’t a bar to anything!

[mumsneedwine]

They ate NOT read by most medical schools. I can promise you that Sheffield, Newcastle, Bristol, Notts(from next year) and many many more make it v clear that they will not be looking at your PS. The GMC have advised against them using PS as too many were bot being written by the student. But don't take my word for - read Ini websites and listen to Admissions tutors. That's what DD did and got her 4 offers last year.

[mumsneedwine]

And I did say most medical schools, not all. However most are moving away from using it for selection. Bristol last year weighted 50% UKCAT, rest academic. This year it's exams and ranked by UKCAT.

[YeOldeTrout]

Did you mean for 2020 entry, mumsneedwine?
How do you have such insider knowledge?
MedSchools council link above says that for 2019 entry, these medical schools:

They Score the PS: Nottingham
PS Explored at interview interest in volunteering & outside interests (which topics may be extracted from PS): Sheffield
PS Read prior to interviews: Newcastle
PS May be used to decide about borderline candidates: Bristol

Or do you believe the MedSchool council compilation document is unreliable?

[YeOldeTrout]

Bristol's own website

[HostessTrolley]

BSMS don’t read them either.

Nottingham scored them this year (2019 entry) but my d said that it had been mentioned either on the open day or the interview day that this will be changing.

[YeOldeTrout]

This agrees with wineneedingmum, from Sheffield (interviewers haven't read statement)

[elliesm98]

I was head girl, did d of e, and got 9 GCSEs c and above
I applied for McDonald’s when I left school and got rejected lol

[YeOldeTrout]

Newcastle saying they read the PS only after interviews. Not clear why, but implied it's somehow part of the final decision.

[mumsneedwine]

They ask about it at interview but it's not part of the selection process. They rank by UKCAT for interview and this year it was pretty high. So hi could have a wonderfully written PS but no one is reading it unless you ace the UKCAT. And it's only used so they can ask you questions - or so they said at the open day last year. But check as every year things change