Graduate Diploma in Law

[trivialtrivia]

Hello there, my dd is a first year studying English at Oxford. She has her eye on completing the GDL after finishing her current degree, with view to becoming a lawyer of some sorts.

It is my understanding that if you're an out of this world applicant then big city law firms would be willing to pay for it. What are the chances of this?

How does it work if one wants to become a barrister?

I have a DD who is a barrister who is 1 year out of pupillage and she did the GDL. No barrister these days has a 2:2. Very few are not RG and 40% are Oxbridge.

Potential barristers can get awards from the Inns for the GDL but many are means tested so DD didn’t get one. The Inns have less money for GDL awards because their major funds go towards the BPTC students. These can be generous and DD got all her BPTC paid for. During the BPTC year, students can apply for pupillage . They might delay if they want to do something else to get more experience in their field of law. However if you go for pupillage it’s very competitive. Therefore if you have a degree in English, a student must know the area of law they wish to pursue. Many barristers will have volunteered or done academic work in the area of law they wish to pursue. DD does family so volunteered in areas related to that.

The pupillage awards are advertised as x amount of money but they are made up from differing components. There is a tax free award and some pupils make quite decent sums by earning during their second six months of pupillage. Some chambers quote the tax free award only but others quote the whole lot. The main thing is: target your applications and avoid human rights! Crime barristers earn the least at baby barrister level.

Therefore your DD should think about what area of law she would like. City law, barrister or a regional firm. You are always competing against more than just your cohort too because some people apply for pupillage for several years before they get one or give up! The other problem is that deadlines come up thick and fast. You are applying for scholarships, pupillage, going for interviews and taking exams all the time. It’s full on. To some extent, this is why universities with shorter terms prep students well for the intensity. However you don’t have to be brilliant but you need to have something special. So your DD can succeed but she needs to plan!

Bas, lots of people manage to make careers from all kinds of different routes. It sounds like he knows what he wants and is getting on with it. I applied to 140 firms in a recession in the early 80s and had 25 interviews before getting a training contract (I must have been particularly bad at interviews... laughing as I type.. my tutor thought it might be because I was only 19 (I graduated in law at 20 which was quite young then and now) but who knows? I htink it was a combination of it just being very competitive and perhaps I didn't say the right things in the interviews but I just kept at it. I scanned my diaries from those years recenlty which brought it all back . I was top of year, winning prizes etc so it wasn't the academic side that was lacking. I have photos of a pile of applications with stamps on ready to post (the way it was done then).

Trivialt's daughter reading English at oxford would be in with a very good chance and in a year's time should apply for some vacation schemes for the summer of the year after and see how it all goes.

If she wants to be a barrister she won’t be applying to 140 chambers. You have to be way more strategic than that. Also I need to correct myself. You can apply for pupillage during GDL year. You don’t need to wait for the BPTC year. However the sooner DD decides which area of law interests her, the better she can plan what she needs to do! Obviously if you want to be a barrister you don’t need a vac scheme. You need mini pupillages. However working for a solicitor in the holidays won’t be time mis spent. So get all the literature and think about it.

Some universities wouldn’t let non law undergrads do moots or much else that’s helpful to being a barrister. Therefore being a self starter helps in that career for a non law grad.

@Xenia - thank you for that - I am sure Ds will make a decent way whatever happens . At the moment he is aiming towards the bar - but let us see. He did make a decision whilst an u/g that magic circle firms were not for him ( actually to be fair he always preferred being a barrister or advocacy but he did investigate the big solicitors firms. - I suspect they will not be troubled that they weren't his career of choice )

If he’s doing the GDL, has he done mini pupillage and sorted out his area of law? The young people on the GDL don’t have the advantage of studying law for three years at university so don’t do areas of law in depth. Therefore decision-making has to be done in double quick time. One thing is for absolute certain, you cannot just fall into pupillage. So is he in a position to apply? When is he applying for his BPTC award from an Inn? DD did all of this whilst doing GDL and extensive volunteering. Brains alone doesn’t always get you what you want at the bar.

Bubbles to be fair, as I'm sure you'll know, they do really like Oxbridge Firsts at the Bar, so Basilisk's son is starting out on very promising ground. They pick up so much about strategy as they go through the GDL but one additional thing I'd advise is to be a little wary of some of the very competitive chambers which regularly take on double the numbers of pupils that they intend to take on as tenants. Also, I disagree with your advice about avoiding human rights - up to a point! If that's what you want to do, go for it, provided you hold a reasonably strong hand of cards. Becoming a barrister in an area you don't really have an interest in would be a major mistake.

DDs friends struggled most with human rights pupillage. It seemed very competitive because so few chambers are involved in this area. So it is wise to think about opportunities. However if you are very committed then yes, don’t give up. There are though, sideways steps from this that are fulfilling and a bit less competitive.

Only some areas of the bar are sprinkled with Oxbridge firsts. Not all. Some chambers take nothing but. Others are clearly looking for a more varied intake! I don’t know what first degree this particular young man has, but the main thing is to focus on what you can do best. So he needs to find his niche. I totally agree about competitive pupillage which isn’t always obvious. It’s luducrously stressful! Knowing you are in this situation makes life difficult right from the start.

Thank you goodbye Ds has done mini pupillages and has worked out which area he wants to work in ( well largely) - So - just up to him to get a "proper" pupillage" . Still trying to get through GDL , & get a bar school place - but as we always say in this house - One step at a time.

He is interested in Land law and also Shipping . But just thinking about what interests him. Your advice about being a barrister in an area which did not interest with you resonated with him. So he does not want the criminal bar - more commercial. Ah I don't know but he is still just trooping through and doing the various mini pupillage things ( in various chambers so he can see what they are all about )

To add a few more thoughts to those of others. I am a city lawyer, (solicitor).

I would personally advise against aiming for the bar if it is criminal or the likes. Usually slightly less competitive, but awfully paid unless hugely successful. I suppose if you are superbly intelligent and can get a double first etc, then the doors of chambers practicing Chancery and Commercial will be open. Chancery or commercial are probably the only only areas worth all the slog for, as they pay very very well.

On average, I'd say to get into these fields you need to be much more well qualified than the average trainee in the city.

If you are bright enough to gain pupillage as a criminal barrister in London, then you are likely suitably qualified to gain a training contract, and make much more money.

Of course, this is considering a career choice purely from a financial reenumeration perspective. If one is willing to have a lower salary but the work is more satisfying to them, then go for it!

As to answer the OP, I would advise that she decides if she has a passion for advocacy, if she does not, and does not realistically look like a starred undergraduate, then a solicitors firm is probably better, and safer option.

Whether your DD gets funded or not I’d recommend the GDL and LPC/BVC as this will enable her to take the path to qualification.

I’d definitely recommend applying for mini-pupillages (if she wants to to become a barrister) or work experience at a law firm/in house legal team. This is a good way to get your foot in the door.

As for being an out of this world candidate I’m not sure I agree. I graduated my law and politics degree with a 2.1 and was pretty unremarkable but did work experience at Freshfields and Clifford Chance and got offered a training contract with the latter.

Whilst the money is clearly in the Corporate legal world it may not make your daughter happy so I’d suggest she makes that call after doing the conversion, life at a magic circle can be extremely hard with very little work life balance. It’s worth looking at a few silver circle law firms.

From my experience too, please pass on to your dd, that any experience in a law firm is often unique to that firm. So please don't be put off the Law from one firm. Try and get a fairly wide range of insight before embarking on the GDL.

It is equally true for the bar, some sets such as Doughty, Matrix Chambers are progressive. Whereas, others who will remain unnamed seem to be stuck in an era long gone. That attracts some, I suppose. Although saying this, I have found that even though barristers are renowned for being snooty and elitist, they are in general are more sociable at dinners et cetera, whereas solicitors are always chatting with an eye to networking and judging their own worth.

Please also remind her that she is just as good as others.

What do you mean by 'she is just as good as others'?

Basilisk - the Pupillage Gateway is open for browsing. Has your DS has a look? Applications open on 7 Jan.

No, you don’t need to be stellar educationally to be a barrister. DDs boyfriend is with a Property/Land set. Property/Land gives the highest pupillage awards so is very competitive. He is stellar educationally but DD isn’t! However educational ability isn’t everything and definitely not in family.

She has various friends who are criminal barristers and, like everyone at the bar, there’s a pecking order. DD is in family. 2 years call and is making very good money. Way more than people think family barristers get (one rung above criminal). She loves what she does and city law would never have been for her.

I think Matrix had the scandal around a certain male barrister - didn’t they? Not sure the women found it progressive! DD wouldn’t have cared where she got pupillage. Most applicants don’t get choices! You grab what you are given. The gateway enables applicants to aim at a variety of sets so it’s worth looking at what’s out there.

By being good enough I meant that she needs to have confidence in her abilities. No she may not be as good on paper, but if she has the confidence that is vital for putting across the best impression.

Out of interest, with those who know/have dc who are junior barristers. Magic circle firms pay around £100k PQ, and American firms up to £145k PQ. Of course with crazy crazy hours. How does the bar compare? For admittedly, my knowledge is second/third hand.

Dh did pgdl, admittedly 15 yrs ago, but he was dual qualified, but not from Oxbridge ( has a medical degree from Ancient Scottish, but had a Mental breakdown and couldn't continue in medicine )
he applied for over 100 pupillages before securing one, where he eventually gained tenancy ...hard slog, and it took him many years to get back to what he would have been earning if he'd stayed in NHS but thankfully now he has a very niche practice and he's doing very well and he is also in enviable position of being able to work from home miles from chambers and very rarely needs to go to court

Stopyourhavering does your DH practice in a branch of medical law? No reason for my question aside from interest.

rouvrent I agree but then we know absolutely nothing about the OP's DD or her aptitudes other than that she's reading English at Oxford. Obviously Oxford is good but a 2.1, even from Oxford, without a further academic qualification, will mean a hard slog to land a pupillage at the Bar in a good set of chambers - and I don't mean only commercial. She might be as good as other people or she might not or she might be significantly better. But the comment in itself is meaningless.

The money compares favourably with the Magic Circle although I have to say I haven't asked DD3 exactly what she earns, or expects to earn in the next couple of years. Much pleasanter working conditions too.

The barrister threads always have a ratio of around 10 who aren’t barristers but know one, 8 solicitors to 1 barrister Amuses me every time.

I’m sure there are plenty of barristers and academics at Oxford who will be able to tell your DD everything she needs to know based on their first hand experience.

I think that as goodbye and me have DDs who are 2 years call, we do know what we are talking about, although from slightly different perspectives.

DD has no academic qualifications beyond a degree in MFL, the GDL and the BPTC. Family law is not the same as some other branches of law. Aptitude for the work is very important. It’s not necessarily a slog if you tick the right boxes and these don’t have to be academic.

DD has an accountant and her first set of accounts are being finalised. Her charging out rate is varying greatly but chambers are busy. She’s not the cheapest and her clerks do a great job for her! The work does require long hours but if you love it, you do it. Travelling out to courts all over is tiring and then you get your brief for the next day. You work on Sundays for court on Monday.

No doubt some barristers with two years call will get what City solicitors get but it would be commercial. However family appears more lucrative than we thought but you need to keep up the work rate.

I presume Slow doesn't want anyone who is not a barrister, even if they have them in the family or instruct them, to keep off barrister threads. If we left them all only to barristers to reply people might not get many answers.

SlowNorris assumes that no-one who knows a young up to date barrister was ever at the Bar themselves. Things have changed dramatically since I graduated SlowNorris and young barristers tend not to frequent MN. But Bubbles and I are both very familiar with the inside track, which is what the DC of MN posters are after.

I was offered three pupillages incidentally, one very definitely on the grounds of looks. Not that I minded at all.

As I said, a lot of things have changed. It was a very good address too :)

If your daughter is at Oxford she has a very good chance of getting a top firm to pay for her conversion, lpc and maintenance on top. She needs to start by applying for vacation schemes. I'm a lawyer and wouldn't pay my own way through these days.

justanotherprolapse a very large number of oxford students get rejected for vac schemes from the Magic Circle, never mind Training Contracts at them. Oxford in itself is no guarantee of anything.

justanotherprolapse i would agree with goodbye . Ds was Oxford - ( off piste but applied for a couple of City financial type firms - no dice , but then I suspect he was doing it lured by money rather than his heart was in it - so having had a peek he backed off that ) He is now GDL and would like Bar school , but we shall see. He has to get through this bit yet and thus far exam results good and has done a fair few minis. However he and his mate ( in similar position ) certainly don't feel they will walk into something and I think both have a partial bursary towards GDL costs , but both living / commuting from home. So Justanother I am not sure if he and his friends are on a hiding to nothing but all of them are having to pay something towards courses or at least subsidise by living at home etc. For those who get everything paid for - well that's brilliant and those people are obviously very talented and probably better than my DS - but just at the moment I am not going to tell him to give up. I tend to tell him to worry about the immediate things he can do rather than worrying long term. We shall see - but between his degree and the GDL ( assuming he gets through that OK ) even if the Bar thing doesn't work out - I am sure he will land a job somewhere , somehow. I just hope he gets one he enjoys.

@ Bubbles I know DS said early Jan was pupillage time - so assuming that is what he is talking about ( he normally is fairly on top of the admin side of things ) - but as SlowNorris alludes to - I am one of the great many who have not been a barrister but am on this thread . It's just nice to hear others' experience - because I am interested in DS's progress & I can't help him because not barrister or solicitor . It's interesting .

The one thing Ds has learned he says from doing work experience and mini pillages is the importance of going into an area you are interested in - don't just go for the highest paid areas - that way great stress could lie.