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Education in Europe - why not travel abroad.

86 replies

HuffingMum · 03/05/2018 16:58

University education (taught in English) in Holland costs about 2000 Euros a year. Here in Luxembourg, some of us Brits prefer to send our English speaking teens to Dutch or German universities.
See the websites www.studyinholland.nl/education-system/tuition-fees-and-cost-of-living
and www.topuniversities.com/where-to-study/europe/germany/study-germany-english
We pay about 400 euros a month for guaranteed accommodation.

OP posts:
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Oldowl · 12/05/2018 19:51

Okdok- which universities is your DD looking at? My DD is very keen to study in The Netherlands for all the reasons you cited- culture, bilingualism and low fees.

She is looking at Leiden and UvA.

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Needmoresleep · 12/05/2018 21:01

Okdok, sorry. People were talking about 'value'. I do believe that some British Universities can deliver value within an international environment, despite high fees. It partly depends how you define 'top'. LSE is competitive, but SOAS is less so. Some courses at Bournemouth U are very highly regarded and attract students from around tge world.

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okdok · 12/05/2018 21:20

I've been to a talk about studying in the Netherlands - they have some good unis, and run a lot of courses in English. But I don't think it works so well from the bilingualism point of view - few English children will have learned any Dutch, so will be studying in English. You'd learn some Dutch by living there, but it's not the most useful language. It is tempting though. What is your DD's thought process, Oldowl?
You have to get to a high standard to be accepted on a course taught in a foreign language. It's not for the faint- hearted. Obviously a much more obvious thing to do if your child has been brought up bilingual due to a parent speaking the language. DD is very linguistic, and up for the challenge.

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Needmoresleep · 12/05/2018 22:09

Ha you almost feel sorry for them, till you realise the percentage of ‘foreign’ (mainly EU) students is some way below that of some popular English and Scottish courses.

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toffee1000 · 12/05/2018 22:12

European universities do not have the same kind of campus culture as U.K. ones, nor do they have clubs/societies really. Or a freshers week.

We honestly won’t know the impact of Brexit until a few years down the line. So it’s difficult to speculate at the moment IMO.

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Chachachac · 12/05/2018 22:15

Maybe so Needmore, but then imagine that the courses in English & Scottish universities were increasingly being offered in, say, French, and the opportunities to study in your native language were dwindling. The language issue means that it’s not easy to draw a parallel with UK to universities.

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Needmoresleep · 12/05/2018 22:31

Dunno. DS is the 2.5% British contingent on his Masters course. Lots of Europeans attracted, in part, by the fact the course is taught in English. The course is oversubscribed so presumably there will be well qualified Brits who did not get a place.

He has competed against some, unsuccessfully, for sought after London based internships, often in the public sector. Because of language barriers, he would have next to no chance of landing similar internships in other European capitals. That’s the way it works. So no great sympathy for the Dutch when they find that their students are having to compete against other Europeans for limited university places.

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okdok · 12/05/2018 23:15

The Dutch can easily solve that problem by cutting down their courses taught in English.

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Chachachac · 12/05/2018 23:17

That’s really not what the article says though; it says that universities get set funding regardless of the number of students, and so it makes more sense to cut back student numbers. No mention of Dutch people not getting in.

There’s a difference between people who want and choose to go and study abroad and do so in their non-native language, and those who wish to study in their native language and home country and yet have limited opportunities to do so.

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Chachachac · 12/05/2018 23:20

The Dutch can easily solve that problem by cutting down their courses taught in English.

Indeed. The problem is that they’ve (I’m generalising here) been going the other way. Many people seem to have the belief that they need to teach in English to be competitive and that anything that’s done only in Dutch doesn’t really rate.

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Needmoresleep · 12/05/2018 23:23

But surely that applies even more to Scottish students. EU numbers have grown. Places are fixed for budgetary reasons, so fewer places for Scottish students. Less of a problem for the Dutch as they can use their language to ring-fence places.

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okdok · 12/05/2018 23:27

After Brexit EU students will no longer have the right to a free place at a Scottish uni. I think I heard that the Scottish government intend to continue to offer them free places though?

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Chachachac · 12/05/2018 23:30

I think we must be talking about two different things because I don’t really understand the comparison you’re making here. I don’t disagree with you; I just don’t see why one country needs to be ‘worse off’ than the other. Things can be bad in both places.

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BubblesBuddy · 13/05/2018 00:23

I do not think many universities in Italy teach in English. I can think of one and it’s private.

When we looked for Erasmus, no Italian university was in the top 100 of world leading universities. There is a reason for this. They are not very good! Bologna is the oldest university in Europe. Older than Oxford or Cambridge. It gave us the bachelor degree as we know it. There are multiple opportunities to take exams if you fail. You go back and do it again, and again. Most of the students are local. They go with their friends. Erasmus students don’t get a place in a hall of residence because they hardly exist. The culture of university is more like school. You live at home and go with friends. It’s no doubt cheaper, but it’s not as good as many universities here - all 16 of them in the world rankings and more besides.

In many cases, if you are taught in English, is the degree valued as highly as UCL, Durham, etc? If you need to speak French or German at a high level before you go, you are bilingual anyway. Swiss and German universities are top class but you generally learn in German or French, not English. How many world tanking universities in Europe teach in English, apart from in the UK and Ireland?

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okdok · 13/05/2018 00:29

You don't need to be bilingual to start studying at a foreign university. You need to be very good, but well below bilingual.
You don't need to be anywhere near bilingual in English to study at a UK university. UK universities are very keen to get international students (who if non-EU pay higher rates than the UK students). This is reflected in who they accept onto courses.

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eleanorbennett · 14/05/2018 12:15

In many cases, if you are taught in English, is the degree valued as highly as UCL, Durham, etc?

My experience is that many multinationals tend to value degrees from Germany and The Netherlands in general more highly as they believe courses there to be more rigorous as the bar for passing examinations tends to be set higher.

For example, it's possible to graduate from Durham with marks as low as 30% in core modules as 40 credits can be compensated. A graduate who applied for a postgraduate to a university in the US and the US college refused to believe the student had obtained a degree because some of the module marks were so low

In saying that, Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial would be very highly regarded. UCL would also have a very good reputation.

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BubblesBuddy · 14/05/2018 13:22

The pass mark at The university of Geneva is 66%. They are well inside the top 100 but teach in French. I love the idea that the average 6th former could access their program without a very strong knowledge of French. Erasmus year is the way to go.

There is still the unanswered issue as to which universities in Europe, that teach in English, are in the top 100 universities? How good are they?

If you study in The Netherlands, I guess you will learn Dutch, but how useful is that? The Dutch speak English very widely! German is more useful, but how many world class German universities teach in English? Few students take German GCSE now, let alone A level. It’s very difficult to access courses in another language unless you are already bilingual or you are on your Erasmus year. At most Uk universities of any note, you have to take and pass modules in the target language before you study abroad. You really cannot rock up to a Grand Ecole to study Engineering, for example, with school level French. The world is your oyster if you already have good language acquisition but the idea that the average 18 year old can be good enough to learn at a world class university with a smattering of the language is laughable.

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user2222018 · 14/05/2018 13:43

You don't need to be anywhere near bilingual in English to study at a UK university. UK universities are very keen to get international students (who if non-EU pay higher rates than the UK students). This is reflected in who they accept onto courses.

To get a tier 4 visa you need to demonstrate a proficiency in English that goes well beyond A level MFL standard.

UK universities cannot accept non-EU students who do not meet language requirements as the required visas will not be issued.

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okdok · 14/05/2018 13:46

As I said, you have to be very good at the language. It is possible to achieve that, but takes a lot of dedication. I don't see you managing it with an A'level. And you don't want to scrape in with your French and then do badly when you're there.

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user2222018 · 14/05/2018 13:46

So no great sympathy for the Dutch when they find that their students are having to compete against other Europeans for limited university places.

In the Netherland you can, by law, enter university automatically if you have passed the appropriate "university track" school leaving exams. There is no selection procedure - except for medicine and related subjects. There are some programmes within universities that do select (the university college programmes) but even then students who are not accepted for the programme are automatically offered places at the university, for related non-selective programmes.

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okdok · 14/05/2018 13:48

Yes, you need to meet language requirements in English. I have seen essays produced by international students. A long way below fluency.

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user2222018 · 14/05/2018 15:27

Sadly in my subject area the worst quality written work is produced by native English speakers. The international students are recognisable by their better writing quality.

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Needmoresleep · 14/05/2018 15:39

User that may well be true. My DC essentially gave up writing essays at 16. It is very possible to get long way in the UK University system without writing much. But it is then quite a shock/struggle when a structured and argued piece of written work is needed.

The advantage of this narrow specialisation is that British students can progress to quite high technical levels at quite a young age, compared with their European or American counterparts. The disadvantage...well....

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abilockhart · 14/05/2018 18:34

There is still the unanswered issue as to which universities in Europe, that teach in English, are in the top 100 universities? How good are they?

Whether or not a university is in the top hundred is largely irrelevant at undergraduate level. Universities who reach the top one hundred are primarily focused on postgraduate research often at the expense of undergraduate teaching.

(Oxbridge is a noted exception as the tutorial system is excellent.)

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