Education in Europe - why not travel abroad.

[HuffingMum]

University education (taught in English) in Holland costs about 2000 Euros a year. Here in Luxembourg, some of us Brits prefer to send our English speaking teens to Dutch or German universities.

See the websites www.studyinholland.nl/education-system/tuition-fees-and-cost-of-living
and www.topuniversities.com/where-to-study/europe/germany/study-germany-english
We pay about 400 euros a month for guaranteed accommodation.

Yes I'm aware of that pample. However the vast majority of undergrads will not experience compromised teaching as a result of brexit. Sorry but that's realistic. Post grads are another matter.

DD is becoming interested in and concerned about politics, yes.
Has already spent time abroad. Would love going to uni on the continent I think.
I also think that the UK will very much need people who are at home with how things are done in more civilised countries, have excellent language and communication skills, etc. As recent events have shown, we are too insular in this country.

DD is becoming interested in and concerned about politics, yes.

But you want her to avoid being active where there is conflict? Isn't that kind of the point of politics in all walks of life. It's like me saying I want to improve young people's lives using the value of education for social mobility, then working in an elite private school.

I also think that the UK will very much need people who are at home with how things are done in more civilised countries, have excellent language and communication skills, etc. As recent events have shown, we are too insular in this country.

Can you see the irony here? You are criticising attitudes for being too insular and then at the same time making similar sweeping generalisations. I've spent around half of my life in the UK. I don't like recent events, but the idea that the UK is somehow less civilised than other European countries is pretty silly. I've experienced far more racism directed at my family in other European countries. The trans debate also hasn't reached a lot of Europe yet, so you can't compare attitudes here with those in Europe.

However the vast majority of undergrads will not experience compromised teaching as a result of brexit.

I think they will, due to reduced funding and loss of strong academics abroad.

My DDs didn’t get anywhere near student politics or the SU. It’s a tiny minority that do in many universities. Most students avoid the student politicians. Many of these people are older anyway and not representative of the majority who do not vote for them or their views.

I cannot see that public universities abroad are better. Many just are exam factories.

Student politics is a horrible, brainwashing environment at the moment. And I think it does impact on non- political students to a degree. Eg the all women's Cambridge college which is now accepting transgender male to females. The intolerant graffiti and posters and hand-outs everywhere. There seems to be an increase in very nasty racism and misogyny on social media among students too.
I do think that the UK has, from when the Tories first regained power, become a very right wing place. When I talk to friends from the continent about some of the stuff that is happening here they can barely believe it. They are completely gob-smacked. Eg the treatment of immigrants. I also think that the reason the transgender movement has made so much progress here is to do with the vacuum in politics. Those ruling the country are not doing so in the interest of its citizens. And I expect things to get a lot worse.
Leaving aside my personal concern for my DD, it surely serves the UK for some of its young people to gain an external perspective and fluency in foreign languages, an ease in dealing with people from other cultures, etc.

I cannot see that public universities abroad are better. Many just are exam factories.
Abroad is a big place!

26 universities in the EU (not counting the UK) are in the World Top 100 Universities.

26 universities in the EU (not counting the UK) are in the World Top 100 Universities.

Amazing isn't it! The EU is 27 countries, an average of one top 100 university per country, and the UK, one small apparently universally bigoted country has 16 top 100!

You don't think we have a problem with bigotry here?!!!
My DD doesn't need to attend 16 (all extremely expensive) universities here. I hope that she will be able to attend 1 (cheaper, and with cheaper living costs too) university abroad. Where just by being there she will become bilingual in another European language and fully at home in another European culture which will almost inevitably have something useful to teach someone brought up in today's UK.
I'm also aware that doing an arts or humanities subject (her areas of interest) at undergraduate level in a UK university is not so fantastic. If she wants to do a masters in the UK, she can do so (subject to her somehow being able to afford the massive fees and living costs). Assuming the person she wants to study under hasn't left for the EU by then.

I think you are ignoring just how international good UK universities can be. I think LSE is 25% British, 25% EU, 50% non EU. Imperial will be similar and SOAS, UCL and KCL will also be far from mono-cultural. Universities like these will also attract relatively high proportions on British BME students. Partly because of language barriers it is is difficult to think of many good EU Universities except perhaps in the Netherlands or Republic of Ireland that will have such a wide mix of nationalities. If your daughter wants both a world class education and string international exposure, its honestly right there on her doorstep.

I think that in post-Referendum febrile Britain, with views often polarised and some very illiberal (on both sides of the political spectrum) attitudes being voiced, it would be easy to conclude that we are an intolerant unwelcoming country. However, our universities are very international, (compared with the rest of the EU) and not inward-looking. They are expensive but Britain has a disproportionate number of world-ranked unis.

Recently I was reading about the problems in French higher education - the seemingly egalitarian approach where everyone with a bac can enter (grandes ecoles aside), cheap, but with a massive fall-out rate, huge class sizes, minimal support. With that in mind, I would be very careful about opting for a uni outside the UK in Europe. Some will be very good but do due diligence first.

I think part of the problem with Britain is that the attitudes of educated, liberal-leaning people have changed dramatically over the past few decades, perhaps creating a bigger gulf between them and others in the country. In Europe arguably social attitudes are changing at a slower pace and so there is less of an obvious disjunct between the socially liberal and the more conservative.

I think you are incredibly naive. Undergraduate education in humanities isn't better through Europe - and quality in any case simply isn't measured by contact hours.

You don't think we have a problem with bigotry here?!!!

And you really don't think there is racism and bigotry in Europe? Again, my own family's experience over decades is that we have experienced much worse racism in what are perceived to be very liberal countries in mainland Europe.

In Europe arguably social attitudes are changing at a slower pace and so there is less of an obvious disjunct between the socially liberal and the more conservative.

There are clear social hierarchies, gaps in attitudes etc that are pretty obvious when you actually live in these countries.

Eg the all women's Cambridge college which is now accepting transgender male to females.

Let's put this into perspective. Almost all Cambridge colleges accept students regardless of their gender, and their accommodation is mixed between genders. You will typically be given accommodation with men and women sharing bathrooms. (Most accommodation is not en suite.)

My DD attended universities in Italy and Switzerland and speaks two languages in addition to English. You don’t have to do undergrad abroad to speak a language. You go to a world class university here and do Erasmus.

I gather Italian men can be exactly what you think they might be in their attitude towards women. They still make lewd remarks and touch you where you don’t want to be touched if you are a women. I guess some people might think that’s a preferable environment to studying here, but I doubt it. Huge classes, huge universities (Bologna has 88,000 students) and they are exam factories. You can take 7 years to do your degree though! I don’t think Italy has a single university in the world top 100. The French public universities are not great either unless you go to a Grand Ecole which is a different environment altogether. The vast majority of European universities teach in their home language so unless you are bilingual to start with, that’s a barrier.

I don’t think the vast majority of students are bothered by university politics at all. At best they see a poster and get voting flyers but just don’t engage. A single women’s college at Cambridge is an outlier. It’s not the norm and most students won’t face any transgender issues. I cannot see why what might happen is a big enough issue not to study here. Students just find like minded friends and enjoy their company. Very few are politically engaged. I also agree with needmoresleep that our universities are cosmopolitan and we do have many world class universities. You pay a graduate tax to go to them, not fees up front.

Universities in the UK are going to take a battering in the coming years as research funding will decline and collaborations grind to a halt.

Oxford and Cambridge will be fine and will continue to attract research funding.

The major London universities will weather the storm and will mainly come through relatively unscathed.

The layer underneath these - Edinburgh, Manchester, Glasgow, Warwick, Bristol - are extremely worried and they will be the ones to bear the brunt of the problem. They will find it impossible to retain anywhere near their current levels of research funding and will have far greater difficulty in attracting world-class researchers.

But what is the benefit?

I think I gave my view of the benefit higher up this thread. I feel that DD would get an education, plus the benefits of bilingualism and in depth discovery of another culture. In the UK she will only get the education. I would also like her to get a close up view of consensus politics (that may be the wrong word for it). I feel that the confrontational point scoring way in which politics, law etc is handled in this country has let us down.
Interesting that everyone assumes that my dd is heading for one of the top UK universities. For all you know she could be heading for number 150 on the UK league table. She would still be left with a massive debt to pay off (whether you call it a graduate tax or not).
Somehow some countries in Western Europe seem to get along despite their lesser university systems!! You might even argue that a country like Germany is doing rather better than the UK at the moment?!

BubblesBuddy - I think you are being a bit unfair regarding Italian men and Italian universities! There have been a lot of improvements over the last few years and a lot of students finish their degree in three years now. What's more there are a lot of courses in English available so they are starting to attract a wider variety of international students. I'm not sure what you mean by them being "exam factories". Yes, they take exams - but doesn't everyone? They certainly don't ONLY take exams. Another plus is the number of scholarships and exchange schemes which allow students to study for part of their degree in different universities all around the world - and all for a fraction of the cost of British universities.

Who knows whether Erasmus will survive Brexit? Very sad if it doesn't

I think Erasmus will survive - maybe just not for UK students!

That was of course what I meant. I do think that it would be stupid for all concerned to exclude UK students. We will still be close neighbours, and need to understand each other and to get along.

Well the EU will be worse off without us in Erasmus seeing as they send far more students here than we send there! There are other exchange schemes btw.....

I am seeing far more students going from Italy to other EU countries to learn English recently -so many courses are now run in English that lots of students prefer to go somewhere else and get two languages for their money! Not sure that that is Brexit related though.