Education in Europe - why not travel abroad.

[HuffingMum]

University education (taught in English) in Holland costs about 2000 Euros a year. Here in Luxembourg, some of us Brits prefer to send our English speaking teens to Dutch or German universities.
See the websites www.studyinholland.nl/education-system/tuition-fees-and-cost-of-living
and www.topuniversities.com/where-to-study/europe/germany/study-germany-english
We pay about 400 euros a month for guaranteed accommodation.

[scaryteacher]

I also think that the UK will very much need people who are at home with how things are done in more civilised countries, have excellent language and communication skills, etc. As recent events have shown, we are too insular in this country.

Yet, ds, who has lived in Belgium since he was 10, chose to go to UK for university. He can get by in Flemish and French. He is currently doing his MA at the same place he did his BA...which is known for having a international cohort.

As for more civilised countries.....moot point. Those will be the ones where all the police are armed, and you can be fined for not having your ID papers/card on you? Mainland Europe does not equal more civilised at all ime and imo.

[eleanorbennett]

BubbleBuddy seemingly is not a fan of Bolyai-Lobachevsky geometry

But in combinatorics, it would be a lottery

[toffee1000]

What does it have any relevance to correlation?? I’ve googled it and it doesn’t seem to be related at all. If you google, it’s also called hyperbolic geometry.

www.math.cornell.edu/~mec/Winter2009/Mihai/section5.html

[BubblesBuddy]

I might be if I knew what it was!!

[abilockhart]

BubbleBuddy seemingly is not a fan of Bolyai-Lobachevsky geometry

[user2222018]

While not entirely irrelevant, the correlation is at best weak.

This is ridiculous.

Back in the real world, there is no way that a maths degree from a top research university is viewed as equivalent to a maths degree from a low entry tariff university. The contents are simply not comparable.

[BubblesBuddy]

Employers don’t agree though do they? A great time and a degree from the University of Blog in Transylvania is not going to persuade anyone it’s a better bet than UCL or Durham. Cheap fees and the possibility of speaking Romanian are not going to trump a world class university. The reputation matters. Research matters. Of course the quality of research is important to undergrads. It underpins what they are taught. My DD was certainly taught be lecturers who did high class research in their fields.

So is there a great list of universities in Europe that teach in English that the wannabe linguist should be heading to then?

Performing Arts universities are not research led so will never feature in the top 100 of the highest quality universities. However they will be judged on who actually gets work afterwards. Only then can you judge value for money.

[abilockhart]

//journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/00346543066004507
Hattie and Marsh examined 58 studies and their conclusion was that for teaching and research “the relationship is 0.” In a subsequent analysis, the same authors sought specific conditions under which research supported teaching, but their analyses failed to reveal a single moderator to the general findings, leading them to conclude that the observed absence of correlation between teaching and research is robust.

[abilockhart]

It is not irrelevant. Research informs teaching. Higher quality research is correlated with deeper and more challenging courses.

While not entirely irrelevant, the correlation is at best weak. Researchers are rarely judged on their undergraduate teaching and it is of little consequence to the majority of them.

[user2222018]

Whether or not a university is in the top hundred is largely irrelevant at undergraduate level.

It is not irrelevant. Research informs teaching. Higher quality research is correlated with deeper and more challenging courses.

For international education, research quality drives league table position but it also drives recognition of the course. It's all very well to say that university x or y teaches wonderful courses, but pretty useless if most UK employers haven't heard of x and y. Top 100 league tables, comparable to top UK universities, helps reassure potential employers about the degree.

[flipflop67]

My DD is studying in the Netherlands. We are from Ireland. She's taking a BA as a dancer/ maker. There was no course here in Ireland. She auditioned successfully in the UK but decided on the Netherlands as she finds the dance scene there more interesting. From our point of view it was a relief as the fees and cost of living are very reasonable. She also gets a student loan.

She is extremely happy there now after a slightly rocky start. The main bonus has been the friends she has made from all over Europe. She cycles everywhere, makes use of a fantastic transport system to go to Amsterdam or other cities for nights out and enjoys a good standard of living. She's in Arnhem. I have no idea how her school ranks in ratings but it's a very specific course in an arts university so not really comparable.

I'd certainly recommend it as an option to consider.

[abilockhart]

There is still the unanswered issue as to which universities in Europe, that teach in English, are in the top 100 universities? How good are they?

Whether or not a university is in the top hundred is largely irrelevant at undergraduate level. Universities who reach the top one hundred are primarily focused on postgraduate research often at the expense of undergraduate teaching.

(Oxbridge is a noted exception as the tutorial system is excellent.)

[Needmoresleep]

User that may well be true. My DC essentially gave up writing essays at 16. It is very possible to get long way in the UK University system without writing much. But it is then quite a shock/struggle when a structured and argued piece of written work is needed.

The advantage of this narrow specialisation is that British students can progress to quite high technical levels at quite a young age, compared with their European or American counterparts. The disadvantage...well....

[user2222018]

Sadly in my subject area the worst quality written work is produced by native English speakers. The international students are recognisable by their better writing quality.

[okdok]

Yes, you need to meet language requirements in English. I have seen essays produced by international students. A long way below fluency.

[user2222018]

So no great sympathy for the Dutch when they find that their students are having to compete against other Europeans for limited university places.

In the Netherland you can, by law, enter university automatically if you have passed the appropriate "university track" school leaving exams. There is no selection procedure - except for medicine and related subjects. There are some programmes within universities that do select (the university college programmes) but even then students who are not accepted for the programme are automatically offered places at the university, for related non-selective programmes.

[okdok]

As I said, you have to be very good at the language. It is possible to achieve that, but takes a lot of dedication. I don't see you managing it with an A'level. And you don't want to scrape in with your French and then do badly when you're there.

[user2222018]

You don't need to be anywhere near bilingual in English to study at a UK university. UK universities are very keen to get international students (who if non-EU pay higher rates than the UK students). This is reflected in who they accept onto courses.

To get a tier 4 visa you need to demonstrate a proficiency in English that goes well beyond A level MFL standard.

UK universities cannot accept non-EU students who do not meet language requirements as the required visas will not be issued.

[BubblesBuddy]

The pass mark at The university of Geneva is 66%. They are well inside the top 100 but teach in French. I love the idea that the average 6th former could access their program without a very strong knowledge of French. Erasmus year is the way to go.

There is still the unanswered issue as to which universities in Europe, that teach in English, are in the top 100 universities? How good are they?

If you study in The Netherlands, I guess you will learn Dutch, but how useful is that? The Dutch speak English very widely! German is more useful, but how many world class German universities teach in English? Few students take German GCSE now, let alone A level. It’s very difficult to access courses in another language unless you are already bilingual or you are on your Erasmus year. At most Uk universities of any note, you have to take and pass modules in the target language before you study abroad. You really cannot rock up to a Grand Ecole to study Engineering, for example, with school level French. The world is your oyster if you already have good language acquisition but the idea that the average 18 year old can be good enough to learn at a world class university with a smattering of the language is laughable.

[eleanorbennett]

In many cases, if you are taught in English, is the degree valued as highly as UCL, Durham, etc?

My experience is that many multinationals tend to value degrees from Germany and The Netherlands in general more highly as they believe courses there to be more rigorous as the bar for passing examinations tends to be set higher.

For example, it's possible to graduate from Durham with marks as low as 30% in core modules as 40 credits can be compensated. A graduate who applied for a postgraduate to a university in the US and the US college refused to believe the student had obtained a degree because some of the module marks were so low

In saying that, Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial would be very highly regarded. UCL would also have a very good reputation.

[okdok]

You don't need to be bilingual to start studying at a foreign university. You need to be very good, but well below bilingual.
You don't need to be anywhere near bilingual in English to study at a UK university. UK universities are very keen to get international students (who if non-EU pay higher rates than the UK students). This is reflected in who they accept onto courses.

[BubblesBuddy]

I do not think many universities in Italy teach in English. I can think of one and it’s private.

When we looked for Erasmus, no Italian university was in the top 100 of world leading universities. There is a reason for this. They are not very good! Bologna is the oldest university in Europe. Older than Oxford or Cambridge. It gave us the bachelor degree as we know it. There are multiple opportunities to take exams if you fail. You go back and do it again, and again. Most of the students are local. They go with their friends. Erasmus students don’t get a place in a hall of residence because they hardly exist. The culture of university is more like school. You live at home and go with friends. It’s no doubt cheaper, but it’s not as good as many universities here - all 16 of them in the world rankings and more besides.

In many cases, if you are taught in English, is the degree valued as highly as UCL, Durham, etc? If you need to speak French or German at a high level before you go, you are bilingual anyway. Swiss and German universities are top class but you generally learn in German or French, not English. How many world tanking universities in Europe teach in English, apart from in the UK and Ireland?

[Chachachac]

I think we must be talking about two different things because I don’t really understand the comparison you’re making here. I don’t disagree with you; I just don’t see why one country needs to be ‘worse off’ than the other. Things can be bad in both places.

[okdok]

After Brexit EU students will no longer have the right to a free place at a Scottish uni. I think I heard that the Scottish government intend to continue to offer them free places though?

[Needmoresleep]

But surely that applies even more to Scottish students. EU numbers have grown. Places are fixed for budgetary reasons, so fewer places for Scottish students. Less of a problem for the Dutch as they can use their language to ring-fence places.