Successful application to US Ivy League

[InvisibleAt53]

DD wants to attend an Ivy League college in the USA. She's predicted the right grades to be considered and has already put some feelers out to Durham and Harvard who have some of the best financial aid packages available. Both responses have been positive but of course, neither are an indication she would get in. She has US citizenship but has never lived there.

Initial discussions have indicated she would get full financial aid - so around $69k a year and come out with zero student debt and a great degree to boot.

Has anyone else DCs gone down this route and how was the experience?

[alreadytaken]

The needs blind scholarships pay for some air fare but that is limited - I dont think it covers Christmas, just the summer holidays but I'm not sure about that. UK students cannot work off campus so are required to work on campus but that doesnt seem to be considered a problem by the UK students.

The system is very different in America as there is more variety in the courses students can take. Americans also look for more rounded applications and the application system is also more time consuming in America since you apply individually to colleges, We have American acquaintances, looking to send children to university here, who were asking about placement consultants here and surprised that UK parents dont generally use them. Americans are surprised how simple our system is in comparison to theirs.

Timescales are also different - students going to America will be leaving home before their UK friends.

However one thing I suspect is the same - competitive parents lie about how much preparation their children are getting.

[goodbyestranger]

DS's Princeton friend took a gap year (she was a late August birthday). That's perfectly possible as an option if a DC doesn't want too short a post Y13 break.

That's a bit of an odd comment about lying alreadytaken!!!! It might reflect more on you than on the group of parents you're disparaging :)

[InvisibleAt53]

Earlybird - DD isn't classed as an international applicant as she has US citizenship so her application will be treated as if she lives in the US. We were told by Harvard and Dartmouth that don't have merit based scholarships and that every applicant who applies for a place is assessed for financial aid.

We were concerned that because her "DF" is American, they would insist on taking his financial situation into consideration but in our particular circumstances where he has never made any contribution towards her upbringing and choses not to play a part in her life, they said they would consider waving his input. Hence, I assume why we would probably qualify for full financial aid.

I would imagine private schools in the UK have the resources to guide pupils through the US university process but my DDs school certainly doesn't. The head of 6th said he'll help as much as possible by feeling his way through the process with her, although I understand that one of this year's leavers has earned a place through the Fulbright program which is great.

[user7214743615]

Don't underestimate how hard it is to get into Harvard, Princeton etc. The success rate is extremely low. I agree with pp that a well-rounded CV is needed - the entrance criteria are very different to those of Oxbridge - but in the end it's a numbers game.

[Needmoresleep]

It is also worth considering why you want to study in the States at Undergraduate level.

US universities provide more scope for academic sports people, musicians etc to keep both up at a high level. Someone DD knows is taking a joint major in economics and drama at a very well regarded college in California and has amazing opportunities. Family links are obviously another reason, as is a desire to study liberal arts. And inevitably the sheer weight of talent at top US Universities is a draw for the very best mathematicians etc.

However:

• if you know what you want to do, the specialisation of UK degrees and the fact they are normally 3 years is attractive, and it is not unusual to see scientists opt for Imperial rather than head for the US. Should he be good enough, DS is interested in taking a PhD in the States. Four years at a well regarded London University (Bachelors and Masters) should be as good a basis as four years UG anywhere in the States. (The breadth of a US degree would give him advantages, but so does the specialisation and technical ground covered in the UK.)
  

• Would be medics invariably stay in the UK. It is so much cheaper. Note also that sports scholars in the US may not be allowed to take pre-med as the work load is high.
  

• Even in my day some American would be lawyers were choosing to take an UG law degree in the UK. Law in the US is post grad so they ended up with law degrees from both systems. (And saved money by losing a year and enjoying lower fees - I don't know if the same is true now).
  

• Teaching methods. The Oxbridge approach to teaching, using tutors, is different. I don't know as the LSE, where DS is, takes a more American approach and this suits DS fine.
  

• Culture. I am not an expert but it is apparently quite different. No alcohol! The little Ivy Liberal Arts Colleges in particular, can apparently be quite a culture shock for London teenagers. Also concepts like class placement.
  

It is worth looking at how best to match the UK's specialisation at A level with US entry exam requirements. IB may work better. Otherwise combinations with include maths, a language and a humanity may work best for liberal arts applicants.

[InvisibleAt53]

DD has no idea what she ultimately wants to do as a profession. So another advantage to going to US is the breadth of study leaves her options wide open.

She has a part-time job washing pots in a kitchen so knows for sure she can knock Chef off the list .

[BrexitSucks]

What makes her special, Invisible?

Applicants to Harvard with amazing academic results are a dime a dozen. Big Deal. They are looking for the future Leaders.

Has she competed at international level in sport, repeatedly? Can she sing like a nightingale & has often performed professionally? She has been chosen to be Head Girl already, right? She has a Youtube channel that has already turned several thousand ££ in profit. She is hoping to be a Sergeant in her Cadets group soon, having won female Air Cadet of the year last year, of course. Her application needs to feature a few of those types of things.

Caltech & MIT are much better to get into if she is purely amazeballs academic, but at science & tech of course.

[InvisibleAt53]

Head girl, year 7 mentoring co-ordinator, junior spokesperson for well-known dementia charity, regular performer in local AmDram, YouTube channel showing other girls how to manage their unruly hair (like hers!), straight A student, works 12 hours a week in a cafe where (according to her) she makes the best frappe latte cappuccino this side of the nearest Starbucks. Can't run for toffee though - is that going to be an issue?

Any insight I can pass onto her about the experience if she's accepted would be wonderful.

[newbian]

I'm American and attended a top 10 non-Ivy League university.

If your daughter is serious about the US I am questioning her choice to focus on only Harvard and Dartmouth. There are excellent universities in the top 20 that have global recognition and may be more flexible in admissions, scholarships and financial aid, such as:

• Georgetown University
  
• Johns Hopkins University
  
• Duke University
  
• University of Chicago
  
• Northwestern University
  

I agree the US system at undergrad suits someone who doesn't know what they want to study and is well-rounded, whereas the UK system favors students who have a clear interest and set of talents in one area early on. Having studied at US and UK universities I also think the opportunities available in the US are unmatched due to more funding and more diverse staff and student bodies.

Your DD probably also needs to look at getting some extra support for applications particularly on personal statements, the US puts a lot of weight on those alongside grades and activities.

[Pallisers]

Harvard is the best deal in town for financial aid - if you can get in! It is incredibly competitive and they can pick from many many students who have all the right grades. But if you do get in their financial aid package is brilliant.

To be absolutely honest, and I am not trying to detract from your child in any way at all, but what you describe is someone in the US who would have a wide choice of excellent colleges - but would not be regarded as a shoe-in to Harvard. The 2 children I know from my kids' years who were accepted recently were absolute straight A/honors/AP students. One was a musician who performs and has distributed and sold his own music - and formidably intelligent. The other was extraordinarily academic, the star of his private school (a traditional feeder school for harvard historically although that is pretty much gone now) soccer team which won the schools cup that year, multi-cultural, fluent in several languages, and ... his dad works in Harvard.

Also all of the US applicants would have done a lot of community service/volunteer stuff.

I am also in the US and have done college aps with one child, in the midst of it with the next and another to go. I agree with newbian that she might want to expand her list (maybe add some smaller liberal arts colleges too - Colby, Bates, Middlebury etc). If she is an attractive candidate she will get offers with financial aid (although Harvard is the easiest and one of the best to navigate in terms of financial aid).

Also you need to understand the world of "early decision" and "early action". One is binding, one is not, not all colleges do it but it can be a way to indicate to colleges your keen interest.

Basically the college thing in the US is like a tennis match. Every college from Harvard down to Nowhere College wants as many people as possible to apply. So they court you during the application process. Then, they get to pick and chose who to make an offer to. At this point they want you to accept their offer - this is their "yield" and matters to their stats. So they want to have a gazillion people applying. They want to make offers to only 10 percent of the gazillion (makes them look highly attractive/competitive) and then they want almost all of that 10 percent to accept. Early decision/action is a way of saying "i will make your yield look good"

Personally I think the US four-year liberal arts degree is the best thing in education and a fabulous opportunity for a kid eager to be educated.

[newbian]

Pallisers good point about liberal arts schools. I know a few friends who got very good scholarship packages from Haverford College.

Stanford I think is matching Harvard on financial aid these days but given OP is in the UK that might be a bit too far away!

[Harriedharriet]

I know a few from Harvard. Amazing education, truly amazing. The breath and dept of Undergraduate courses is quite something. The campus is beautiful, I went once. You know, a little debt may well be worth it and presumably she will be very employable afterwards. There are lots of ways to earn a buck when there. Some Boston friends always had Harvard students as babysitters, tutors and so on.
Well done DD!

[newbian]

Invisibleat53 sorry reread your post. When you say she's had "positive responses" I'm wondering from who? Admissions in the US doesn't work like that unless the candidate is being recruited for a sports team. I don't want your or DD to get your hopes up. I've honestly never heard of a top university indicating to a potential application A) likelihood of acceptance or B) guarantee of expected financial aid in advance - again unless recruited for sports.

[Pallisers]

Invisibleat53 sorry reread your post. When you say she's had "positive responses" I'm wondering from who? Admissions in the US doesn't work like that unless the candidate is being recruited for a sports team. I don't want your or DD to get your hopes up. I've honestly never heard of a top university indicating to a potential application A) likelihood of acceptance or B) guarantee of expected financial aid in advance - again unless recruited for sports.

Agreed. And Harvard possibly doesn't even do that for sports as it has such a choice of candidates.

Basically the admissions people will tell you she is a strong candidate and will explain the financial aid to you and sell you the positives - and as far as Harvard goes, it is pretty much all positive. They want you to apply. At this stage in the game, their job is to get as many excellent candidates to apply as possible. She will still have to beat the incredible odds of securing a place in Harvard because their acceptance rate is one of the lowest around. It doesn't change her being a strong candidate but it doesn't mean a guarantee or even a hint at all.

[InvisibleAt53]

We specifically discussed pre-requisite grade requirements and my DDs situation with her father and whether they would look favourably on her particular situation and not take his income into consideration in any FA application. They were helpful explaining the non-academic criteria which would assist in any application and also walked us through the general application procedure. Of course they made no guarantees whatsoever about a successful application - how could they - but given the information we provided, they encouraged her to consider making an application and advised what she should do to bolster her chances. We didn't leave those conversations thinking for a minute she had any advantages or promises of an acceptance.

We are coming from a place where we know very little about the admissions process in the US but what we do know is that to get the financial aid DD will need, she must aim for one of the higher performing colleges. She looked at Harvard because it is considered one of the best in the world, therefore, she can work towards the high application standards they need and this alone might stand her in good stead if she applies to other institutions, which I'm sure she will. The reason she is considering Dartmouth is because of their unique 4 semester program which gives her a degree of flexibility.

[Travelledtheworld]

Invisible. Hi.
I lived in the USA for many years and my DH is American.
My kids went to elementary school in the USA in two different New England states. I have many American friends and family with kids now in college.

Agree with most of the comments above re prepping for college and intense competition to get into Ivy League. Don't forget your DD will be competing on a global stage, not just against American kids but very clever and motivated students from India, china, etc.

Also think about doing a four year UK degree course with a year in the USA. This is often a very cost effective way to study abroad, and also at an age when the student is a little more mature and able to cope with living in a very different culture and a long way from home.

And if looking around for other Universities in the USA consider the weather. Boston and Hanover are COLD in the winter and the winters do drag on. Great if your DD likes skiing though. Further south for milder winters but often hot and humid summers.

Think about the difference in lifestyle and living costs small college towns e.g. Hanover vs International cities e.g. Boston. Campus living V city living.

Travel wise, cheapest flights are Aer Lingus from many English regional airports via Dublin where you go through US Immigration at Dublin Airport rather than suffering the stressful wait on arrival in Boston or New York.

[InvisibleAt53]

Traveledtheworld Thank you. That's very useful information.

She's also looking at a program with UCL which allows for a year at Colombia but again, places for this are very limited.

She's pretty much a good all round student with no idea of where she wants to specialise yet, hence the appeal of the US. She's particularly strong in sciences and maths but definitely doesn't want to study engineering, finance or medicine - or so she thinks right now.

I think the best move would be to take a trip out and visit some of the colleges to better gauge the environment. That might give her a bit of a reality check or alternatively reinforce her determination to give it a go.

Great tip about the flights btw. Thank you.

[Pallisers]

She's pretty much a good all round student with no idea of where she wants to specialise yet, hence the appeal of the US. She's particularly strong in sciences and maths but definitely doesn't want to study engineering, finance or medicine - or so she thinks right now.

This is the real strength of the american system it is perfect for students like this who want to learn but not specialise early. If her interest is STEM, that will add to the strength of her application I think.

I think doing some college tours would be a great idea - except of course she will fall in love with some of the campuses and college life - they really do a hard sell on these tours :)

Is there anyone in her school who has any knowledge of the US system who can help her maybe expand her list a bit? Some of the really excellent liberal arts colleges offer great financial aid. Off the top of my head, on the east coast alone, she might want to take a look at

Boston University
Boston College
Colby
Bates
Middlebury
Brown
Amherst (not U Mass Amherst Amherst College)

There is no doubt that Harvard will have the best financial aid package - if she is made an offer.

It is great that she is thinking and pushing herself toward something different.

[Earlybird]

FWIW, I think some of the 'second tier' US universities are much more generous with financial aid as a way of enticing the best students to enroll.

I have a friend with a dd who is top of her class, and has extremely strong test scores, great extra curricular activities, etc. She was initially aiming for one of the top 20 schools, but she was aggressively recruited by Baylor (in Texas). She was offered a full scholarship, $5,000 per year for expenses, and the school will pay airfare for her Mum to visit 4x per year. Based on that offer, she is going to Baylor.

The Ivy League schools wouldn't offer a package like that because they simply don't have to. By all means, apply to Harvard. But, you'd be wise to look at other options too.

[InvisibleAt53]

Pallisers/EarlyBird Thanks for that info. We had assumed, perhaps naively, that the only the top colleges would offer the financial aid she would need so we will spread our research further afield.

She was initially looking at Law as a career and the companies she targeted in New York were only looking for top law school graduates. She felt that to get into, for example, Harvard or Stamford Law, she'd need a degree from one of the top undergraduate programs.

It's that British educational system mentality - work out when you're 15 what you want to be when you're 21 and work backwards!

We're going to the undergraduate fair in London in September so will note down some of your suggestions, research them and speak to them while we're there.

Thanks again.

[Pallisers]

Harvard run a fairly simple sliding scale of aid based on parents income - you can calculate it online. I have no doubt their admissions aren't blind - they must have some fully paying students too (although their endowment is such they probably don't need the fees) but it is pretty much a given what the aid will be on a certain income. Most of the others won't be as predictable.

With regard to the law school thing, an excellent degree from a prestigious/well-regarded UK university and a strong LSAT would probably be as good for entry to an excellent law school. I know several people who did undergraduate in Ireland, then went to law schools like Michigan or Harvard and are now working in corporate law in NYC. Their undergraduate didn't stop them. This is also true for medicine.

[Leeds2]

Invisible, my DD has just completes her first year in the US. All gone very well, fwiw!
Re the Open Days, we found that most unis/colleges ran them every day throughout the summer. They are much smaller events than Open Days in the UK, simply because there are so many of them! Typically, there were between 20 - 50 families at each, divided off into groups of 10 for the tour. There was always ample opportunity to ask questions of staff and students.
Simply because there are so many different institutions, we decided to restrict her choices to a geographical area so as to make visiting the different places easier in one trip, and a restricted choice made it less overwhelming!

[7461Mary18]

It sounds like she is more interested in science but if she were still interested in law if she had planned to practise law in England, she may well be better qualifying in England.

Good luck. It sounds like she is very determined and will do well.

[lljkk]

Law degrees don't tend to translate to other countries. Because each legal system is specific to jurisdiction. Think carefully about that one.

[Travelledtheworld]

Invisible you are welcome.

Good idea to go and visit some colleges this summer or next if you can fit it in and afford it.
And even better if she could fit in a summer camp or similar to spend time on her own in the USA before she goes to college.

Of course she will think it is great in the USA, all teenagers do.
But also be aware of the huge cultural differences between the USA and the UK, and between different US states. After many years in New England I personally would struggle in living in the Christian dominated right wing conservative South.

And although she may be very motivated to make this huge move at this age, teenagers can be notoriously fickle and all kinds of things can happen in their lives to make them change their minds about their futures.
So just be flexible, and have a couple of backup plans.