Successful application to US Ivy League

[InvisibleAt53]

DD wants to attend an Ivy League college in the USA. She's predicted the right grades to be considered and has already put some feelers out to Durham and Harvard who have some of the best financial aid packages available. Both responses have been positive but of course, neither are an indication she would get in. She has US citizenship but has never lived there.

Initial discussions have indicated she would get full financial aid - so around $69k a year and come out with zero student debt and a great degree to boot.

Has anyone else DCs gone down this route and how was the experience?

[OKBobble]

Jie0930 I have seen you join 2 very old threads and you may get answers if you start a new thread or ask your question on an Oxbridge thread

[Jie0930]

anyone has good G5 universities application agency recommendations, preferably based in London. I am looking at Year 2020 application. Thanks.

[bojorojo]

I was actually quoting statistics rather than observation. Even the most competitive course at Oxford takes more than 5% of applicants and some take 33%. Statistically this is a better bet for the very bright young person.

[Puffpaw]

Taking onboard all the excellent advice given here I would probably take the view of 100% supporting dd in giving it her best shot (which it sounds like you will) whilst remaining realistic, and having some back up options for uni/college. If she tries and succeeds with Harvard, amazing! If she tries and fails she will learn some valuable lessons throughout the process of gaining the necessary skills and experiences to apply. Either way she wins. She is lucky to have a mum like you.
Aside from uni applications I would also suggest she gets work experience lined up in different industries now. The broader her exposure the more likely she will find a focus for a career that she can build on, you cannot be successful without a focus.

[wheresmyphone]

All I can usually add is whilst your DD sounds great at getting the information if you truly want her to achieve this you need to get on top of your game and research, research, research now about the process. My children were at an American International School. The American parents there often treated college apps as a full time job in terms of the amount of hours they spent supporting their kids. Good luck!

[Pallisers]

I think it is a bit of a racket, really: very hard to get in, but also quite unpredictable. The one thing you can be sure of is that it is very different from the process of getting into UK Universities. Oxford was a breeze in comparison.

Completely agree with this - that it is unpredictable. You can have a kid with the best grades, perfect SATs, captain of the lacrosse team, plays the oboe to orchestra level, set up a charity to help the homeless and all you could say is she has a good chance at Harvard. even that kid would apply to several colleges.

[claraschu]

Ivy League interviews have almost no bearing on acceptance. Here is an interesting article from the NY Times: www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/29Rparenting.html

My son just graduated from Yale (he is half American, but grew up in the UK). OP, if you want to chat about the process, send me a PM. I agree that you need to apply to a lot of US colleges, have some quality that really stands out on the application, and get lucky...

I think it is a bit of a racket, really: very hard to get in, but also quite unpredictable. The one thing you can be sure of is that it is very different from the process of getting into UK Universities. Oxford was a breeze in comparison.

[Needmoresleep]

"It is still the case it it is easier to get to Oxbridge than Harvard."

From observation, this is not necessarily the case, though would defer to your greater experience.

Top American colleges are certainly more competitive, but apply different criteria. Yes they are fishing from the same pool of very bright applicants, however some seem to do well in the US process despite not being considered Oxbridge shoe-ins. As with any application it is about understanding what the selector is looking for and demonstrating that you meet these criteria. I have met a couple of people who do initial interviews for their US alma matae, and they seem to be looking for an applicant who really stands out. A stark contrast to somewhere like LSE who does not interview at all.

[bojorojo]

It is well known that Oxbridge don't care about extra curricular by and large. They care about academics and doing well at interview. This is why apparently good candidates "on paper" aren't so good when compared to others. It is also about how you discuss your subject at interview and do in tests. It is still the case it it is easier to get to Oxbridge than Harvard.

[Pallisers]

Not on point of OP but this all over the news here in Boston area today:

"At least 10 admitted Harvard students in the Class of 2021 had their admissions offers rescinded after a group exchange of racist and sexually offensive Facebook messages, the Harvard Crimson student newspaper reported this week."

Hard to imagine being these students - celebrated in their high schools as going to Harvard and now not going anywhere but an emergency gap year.

[Needmoresleep]

Though it is worth being realistic about the competition, and certainly worth casting any net beyond Harvard and other obvious big name colleges, I think Bojorojo's stats should not be taken simply at face value. .

These colleges are looking for diversity. A lot of applicants from the UK will be American, or from third countries. A lot will be from schools who are experienced in the application process and provide the same level of support that an equivalent American school would. From observation it seems to help to have an unusual nationality, be the first in your family to go to University, or something else that makes your application stand out. I assume (based on the US University briefings I went to) that US Universities already know a lot about academic London private schools and will treat their applicants on a similar basis to the way they treat comparable applicants in the US.

I suspect that more leeway might be given from a UK candidate from elsewhere in the UK who does not have the same support in producing a polished application. But the application will still need to be pretty good, or rather the applicant will still need to be something special.

[Pallisers]

I believe they look at the all-round suitability of applicants, including the soft-skills such as maturity, objective thinking, attitude and overall demeanour.

They do and they don't. The single predictor of acceptance to Harvard (other than daddy handing over a few million) is having really superb academic grades. So they are only looking at the top academic students to start with. Then they look at things like extracurricular achievements. For many applicants this will be like being captain of sports teams, playing instruments in orchestras, doing significant volunteer work etc.(the joke in my son's school was that the chess team and computer science club all joined cross country so they could claim a varsity letter on their applications - making the cross country team the team with the highest GPA every year). The teacher/coach recommendations and the personal essay matter too.

I think your daughter is right to give it a shot if she is that academic/has the grades. If she wants to add to her cv, I think she should look at community service/volunteering and anything that shows that she is innovative or can take a leadership or service role (of course learning to play the bassoon to orchestra level would be an immense help too!). She should just be aware that the admissions people telling her she should apply is not a real indication of anything at the moment.

[InvisibleAt53]

I believe they look at the all-round suitability of applicants, including the soft-skills such as maturity, objective thinking, attitude and overall demeanour. Oxford and Cambridge certainly do that too. I know lots of kids who have applied for Oxbridge who, on paper, look like fantastic candidates with insane academic, sporting and musical achievements under their belt. Many of them were left shocked at not being offered a place in favour of other candidates who, on paper, seem less qualified.

While it's important for DD to remain realistic about her prospects - which she is - it's not in her nature either to give up. She believes she has just as good a chance as the next person if she puts the work in.

[bojorojo]

In 2016 Harvard took 5.2% of U.K. applicants. A lower ratio than Oxford or Cambridge in terms of successful applicants:applicants. This is 35 students and clearly the hundreds applying would all be talented. It is a very long shot to get a place. Also a lot of the special attributes your DD has are not academic or very special in terms of skill. Anyone can be a school mentor (fairly standard in lots of schools) and post hairstyles on u tube (are you seriously thinking this is Harvard worthy??) but not anyone can play several musical instruments at grade 8, be on a County sports team etc. This is the level of extras needed. Working in a cafe is ok but not special and lots of nice girls are Head Girl. That is a gift, not a skill. She needs to take a look at how to stand out from the hundreds who are competing for places.

[InvisibleAt53]

At the moment she's just evaluating possible career options but as I said previously, one of the reasons she thinks Uni in the US might be good for her is she doesn't need to tie herself down to any one path until she's had more time to think about it.

I actually believe a UK degree has more credibility attached to it on the worldwide stage but can absolutely understand that the structure, financial advantages and lifestyle associated with a US college is very appealing.

[Puffpaw]

So long as she is not doing law because she thinks it will be like Suits! She'll be very tired and disappointed. I agree she needs to raise her game if she wants to go to Harvard, she has to be the best in the world, not the best in her school. If she has a talent for STEM that really will offer her far better and more lucrative opportunities than law with less competition.

[InvisibleAt53]

All great advice. Thank you.

She is acclimatised to the US as her father's family are there so she regularly spends long periods away from home visiting them.She isn't interested in going to the South for the reasons you state Traveltheworld. The religious and segregated nature of those states isn't for her.

She's going to take a year out after A'levels before making her choice so we have 3 years to do some objective research. The lady at Harvard said they wished more students did this as they felt slightly older students were more prepared and committed to their studies and would encourage anyone to take the year out doing something relevant to build up the quality of their application.

She'll also apply for places in the UK as a backup.

That said, University isn't the be all and end all. If she finds something along the way that she loves and is good at then I'd support her decision not to go to University at all. She can always do the same as me and get her degree when she's 40!

[Travelledtheworld]

Invisible you are welcome.

Good idea to go and visit some colleges this summer or next if you can fit it in and afford it.
And even better if she could fit in a summer camp or similar to spend time on her own in the USA before she goes to college.

Of course she will think it is great in the USA, all teenagers do.
But also be aware of the huge cultural differences between the USA and the UK, and between different US states. After many years in New England I personally would struggle in living in the Christian dominated right wing conservative South.

And although she may be very motivated to make this huge move at this age, teenagers can be notoriously fickle and all kinds of things can happen in their lives to make them change their minds about their futures.
So just be flexible, and have a couple of backup plans.

[lljkk]

Law degrees don't tend to translate to other countries. Because each legal system is specific to jurisdiction. Think carefully about that one.

[7461Mary18]

It sounds like she is more interested in science but if she were still interested in law if she had planned to practise law in England, she may well be better qualifying in England.

Good luck. It sounds like she is very determined and will do well.

[Leeds2]

Invisible, my DD has just completes her first year in the US. All gone very well, fwiw!
Re the Open Days, we found that most unis/colleges ran them every day throughout the summer. They are much smaller events than Open Days in the UK, simply because there are so many of them! Typically, there were between 20 - 50 families at each, divided off into groups of 10 for the tour. There was always ample opportunity to ask questions of staff and students.
Simply because there are so many different institutions, we decided to restrict her choices to a geographical area so as to make visiting the different places easier in one trip, and a restricted choice made it less overwhelming!

[Pallisers]

Harvard run a fairly simple sliding scale of aid based on parents income - you can calculate it online. I have no doubt their admissions aren't blind - they must have some fully paying students too (although their endowment is such they probably don't need the fees) but it is pretty much a given what the aid will be on a certain income. Most of the others won't be as predictable.

With regard to the law school thing, an excellent degree from a prestigious/well-regarded UK university and a strong LSAT would probably be as good for entry to an excellent law school. I know several people who did undergraduate in Ireland, then went to law schools like Michigan or Harvard and are now working in corporate law in NYC. Their undergraduate didn't stop them. This is also true for medicine.

[InvisibleAt53]

Pallisers/EarlyBird Thanks for that info. We had assumed, perhaps naively, that the only the top colleges would offer the financial aid she would need so we will spread our research further afield.

She was initially looking at Law as a career and the companies she targeted in New York were only looking for top law school graduates. She felt that to get into, for example, Harvard or Stamford Law, she'd need a degree from one of the top undergraduate programs.

It's that British educational system mentality - work out when you're 15 what you want to be when you're 21 and work backwards!

We're going to the undergraduate fair in London in September so will note down some of your suggestions, research them and speak to them while we're there.

Thanks again.

[Earlybird]

FWIW, I think some of the 'second tier' US universities are much more generous with financial aid as a way of enticing the best students to enroll.

I have a friend with a dd who is top of her class, and has extremely strong test scores, great extra curricular activities, etc. She was initially aiming for one of the top 20 schools, but she was aggressively recruited by Baylor (in Texas). She was offered a full scholarship, $5,000 per year for expenses, and the school will pay airfare for her Mum to visit 4x per year. Based on that offer, she is going to Baylor.

The Ivy League schools wouldn't offer a package like that because they simply don't have to. By all means, apply to Harvard. But, you'd be wise to look at other options too.

[Pallisers]

She's pretty much a good all round student with no idea of where she wants to specialise yet, hence the appeal of the US. She's particularly strong in sciences and maths but definitely doesn't want to study engineering, finance or medicine - or so she thinks right now.

This is the real strength of the american system it is perfect for students like this who want to learn but not specialise early. If her interest is STEM, that will add to the strength of her application I think.

I think doing some college tours would be a great idea - except of course she will fall in love with some of the campuses and college life - they really do a hard sell on these tours :)

Is there anyone in her school who has any knowledge of the US system who can help her maybe expand her list a bit? Some of the really excellent liberal arts colleges offer great financial aid. Off the top of my head, on the east coast alone, she might want to take a look at

Boston University
Boston College
Colby
Bates
Middlebury
Brown
Amherst (not U Mass Amherst Amherst College)

There is no doubt that Harvard will have the best financial aid package - if she is made an offer.

It is great that she is thinking and pushing herself toward something different.