Exeter offers : incompetent or arrogant?

[TalkinPeace]

DD submitted her form last October
Exeter have still not had the courtesy to send an offer (the other four Unis all have)
when phoned they said

• no offers have been issued (bollocks as DDs friends have theirs)
  
• offers will be made by end of December (bollocks as its now late march)
  
• offers will be made right after the UCAS cut off date (bollocks as it was in January)
  
• offers will be made by the end of March ........
  

Exeter are arrogant liars
the word needs to go round

[Coffeewith1sugar]

I don't know about other people or I need to take a chill pill. But it really bugs me when posters, either they dont know they are doing it or its intentional, kind of brag in a subtle way that their kid manage to do everything themselves, never required parents advice, input etc.. They would frown upon it even if they did. It's almost like stealth boasting way of saying how brilliant and amazing they are and the kid. Which frankly the kid is, no denying that. But then they go one step further by having a little dig at other parents who did things differently to them, make them feel a bit shitty because by their own standards, think we have over helped, hindering dc's future to the point they could never cope with the outside world. As though they can't think for themselves and are fragile. The thing is, they can its just that they like to ask their nearest and dearest for advice or want a second opinion. What's so wrong with that?
You know I must have read DD's PS over 20 times! Because she kept changing certain words and make me proof read to the point I could memorise pretty much all of it, couldn't get the blooming thing out of my head! bless her she was just wanting to get things perfect, no one else she said she could trust or would understand . She wanted the uni offers so much trying to leave no stone unturned. Now she's at uni, we reflect back and have a good laugh about it all, shes moved on and gasp, shock, horror hasn't asked us for any help and can stand on her own two feet. Even if she did ask us for help or advice I'm not going think or make her feel she's failed in doing so. Amen.... End of my silly rant....

[Molio]

Coffee I wouldn't say that reading personal statements or talking about the merits or otherwise of different unis is overdoing it at all, rather that it was standard, and merely indicates interest. But if the DC doesn't choose to share their personal statement then that's surely fine too - there may be all sorts of reasons, all perfectly legit.

But that's a million miles away from some of the parenting described on here by particular posters, which involves what Uhtred describes as micromanaging their DC's schoolwork to a quite extraordinary degree. That's alien to me for one as it clearly is to Uhtred and although I tend to subscribe to the 'each to their own' school of thought I do think it can be deeply counter productive for the DC, not to mention time consuming for the parent involved and often very irritating for teachers on the receiving end of endless e-mails when they really do have better things to do than be monopolized by a small number of obsessive parents. I say that with feeling and some posters on here are readily recognizable even if they think that they're not (possibly the same posters who like to occasionally attempt to out others!).

I'm not in the least convinced that it's to do with school type or fee paying or not: one refreshingly honest parent who posts a lot cheerfully admits to being massively involved at the micro level of her DCs' lives and they're at a top (properly top) independent. I'm sure it's much more to do with the constitution of the parent than anything else.

It can be just as irritating to those who choose not to micromanage to be accused of doing so when they don't, with the implication being that their kid is too thick to achieve on it's own without a totalitarian regime at home. But I think for those who do do it that way then it's good to hear, because not all parents have the resources to micromanage and there may well be parents who prefer to hear the experience of other similar parents whose kids have passed the 11+ or GCSEs or whatever by having a bit of faith in their kids and the teachers and who - without being in the least bit disinterested - are also fairly hands off. Because that is actually possible and can actually work - a lot of this insistence that parents have to be breathing down the necks of their kids at every step is deeply inhibiting to some parents who then think their kid will never pass the 11+, never get to a good uni etc. I think that if it's not simply sour grapes (accompanied by shrieks of 'stealth boast') then it's a conspiracy to inhibit access at all levels - indeed I was introduced to MN by a HT who was appalled by what was written on these thread from precisely that point of view.

[Alwaysfrank]

I've been lurking on this thread with interest as an Exeter graduate from many decades ago. I now learn I'm a "muppet" for having studied an accountancy degree there!

All those years ago I chose it because I didn't want to study a particular single academic subject, I knew I wanted to be an accountant, and I was attracted to the content of that particular degree (which at the time was the most highly respected of any accountancy degree - but I would say that ). There was a lot of economics, law, and statistics as well as accounting modules. If that makes me a muppet, so be it!

Talkin - as an accountant yourself I don't believe that you don't know anyone with an accounting degree as a previous poster said upthread. A significant proportion of the intake when I joined a big accountancy firm on a training contract also had accountancy degrees. What a lot of muppets!

[HocusWireless]

cracking post Molio

The other thing about MN is that some people in the way they post come over as so certain. I am not usually. The number of times I have worried or asked advice or expressed an opinion about DS are legion, they come not as single spies etc. I still think I am pretty hands off - DS would probably tell you differently .

[Molio]

Cheers Hocus. I think you flatter me rather given the inappropriate apostrophe.

[MrsGuyOfGisbo]

Agree with Hocus - others seem so certain - we (DH & I) are just bumbling through - if we ever crack it will be when our own DC are past benefiting.
In awe of Molio who has done it multiple times and patiently takes the time to come here and give benefit of experience to us newbies - thanks!

[sendsummer]

But that's a million miles away from some of the parenting described on here by particular posters, which involves what Uhtred describes as micromanaging their DC's schoolwork to a quite extraordinary degree.
I am genuinely curious Molio. What are the posts in this thread that show posters micromanaging schoolwork of their DCs? Or are you referring to micromanaging their HE applications?

[Quook]

I think lots of us bumble though it and that's why it would be nice if people weren't critical of other posters for being 'over invested' or whatever. The Higher Education threads are really informative, it's a shame when they get snippy.

[Coffeewith1sugar]

mrsguy this is your post earlier:-
"The biggest eye-opener here as apparent of teenagers, one of whom is one of this year's Uni applicants (tho' I guess should not be - is Mumsnet after all) is how deeply involved some parents are...
Our child did UCAs supported by the school - have not seen PS - offer came through, DC has chosen firm and insurance, and we have jot had any input - same as when I did it yonks ago.
When did parents get so over-invested involved in this? How will their mollycoddled DC fare away from the nest?"
Exactly this kind of non helpful post??? Gets up my wick! Do you give out advice on HE. If you do, isn't it a bit hypocritical coming from you, since you advocate the 'leave the kids to sort it themselves, otherwise they won't make it in life" ideology. If you don't come on here to give helpful advice, why the hell do you bother to post?? Is it for some big ego trip. I get it you have dc's who are independent, self assured probably have leadership traits so are self starters. Great for you. wether it's your great parenting skills or genius child. It would be great if you could not judge how ours are going to turn out because we don't do things like you! Urghh need more chill pills........

[BertrandRussell]

Is Molio doing her "Children? Oh, I think I've got some somewhere" routine again?
DevilishPyjamas- mine didn't-did yours?

[Molio]

Bertrand I have a pretty good grip of where my kids are most of the time which is no mean feat, but please do feel free to create fiction if that helps you feel better in some way.

sendsummer I was responding to a particular post earlier which ranged well beyond HE in fact back to schoolwork then through HE and beyond.

[sendsummer]

IM humble (rather than smug ) opinion there is generally a lot of helping and helpful advice in HE threads from HE professionals or posters with experience.
However (although I have to admit to being a SMOTHERED ) I do think use think as mustn't be too certain that some posts such as that of MrsGuyofGisbo came across as a rather unhelpful lofty view that is an aspiration rather than reality for many, due both to differing DCs' needs and that some schools are so much less resourced for UCAS advice than others.

[Molio]

Not quite true Coconutty. Some of us know very well who others are even if we're scrupulous enough and sufficiently rule abiding not to out them.

For the record, I'm a petite size 10 and not in the least bit hairy :)

[UhtredRagnorsson]

QUook I know I'm not the only poster who has commented that some seem over invested but, speaking for myself alone, I only made that comment after others had opined that anyone who doesn't do that and 'claims' to be hands off is only able to be so because they have purchased that option (through paying others to do the micromanaging). Which is clearly both inaccurate and nuts. Most of the parents I know (ranging across several schools most, though not all, state) did not read their kids' PSs at all let alone multiple times and they certainly didn't proof them (though I'm fairly sure not all of the people claiming to have done that here actually did that, since proofing is a specialist skill). Nor has anyone I know tracked the number of times their kids have emailed/rung potential choice unis. I will admit I did drag DD2 out of the house when DD1 had a phone call with the head of department at one of the places that made her an offer (they were trying to persuade her to accept it) so that DD2 didn't accidentally disrupt the call. And that did involve cash expenditure because I had to buy her a hot chocolate in pret as a bribe. And of course I paid for all the gadding round the country to interviews and auditions. But I don't think that counts.

I don't think my child is better than anyone else. But I do think a hands off approach is better...healthier...than an over invested one. And if I was going to be less hands off the beneficiary wouldn't be DD1 it would be DS who is doing GCSEs and needs regular kicks up the arse - sadly though not being a person of leisure the time available to do that is constrained.

I think maybe the difference in attitude isn't to do with the type of school attended but the circumstances of the parents and their own experiences. Both DH and I had lovely parents who nevertheless knew literally nothing about education beyond O levels/school cert. And who had no involvement in our own school work, exams, uni applications etc other than being pleased when things went well and sympathetic/philosophical/fatalistic (depending on the parent) when they didn't. I've never read a single essay any of my kids has written, my parents never read a single essay I wrote. There was no need in either case. I'm sure people will be along to tell me either I'm showing off or I'm terrible but neither is true (well, I may be terrible). It's just context for why I feel some people seem to me to be over invested. And I do find that young people these days (graduate trainees in my company) need a hella lot more spoon feeding than used to be the case. And often write really poorly. And that gives me pause for thought. That's all.

On the specific topic of Exeter I still don't think their behavior was arrogant however I do think it was misguided - if they didn't want the OP's daughter they should have said so right from the off not strung her along for months then made a silly offer (in context, since the course offered did not match her profile or her obvious requirements) which they must have known was unlikely to be accepted. They may have thought they were being kind and helpful - but they clearly weren't.

[bojorojo]

Alwaysfrank - please don't read the Oxford Maths thread. You would be horrified at the views of one poster on Accountancy! Apparently no French student would ever choose an accountancy or financial option in a maths degree at Warwick because they are not taught by the maths department! French companies, apparently, would not approve of this choice of modules. They are only for the less able! Unbelievable. A bit off topic, but how elitist!!!

[Sunshowercap]

But the French system does have its elite segment, which is far more exclusionary & elitist than most in Britain.

[Molio]

Uhtred I thought this obsessive monitoring of a DC's educational stuff was a purely modern phenomenon anyway? We didn't even have parents' evenings when I was at school - that would put the cat among the chickens now.

[hayita]

a silly offer (in context, since the course offered did not match her profile or her obvious requirements)

It was not a silly offer.

OP is being silly to say that Natural Sciences is 40% computer science and 40% physics - anyone who checks the Exeter site can see that this is not the case.
Natural Sciences begins with a broad base of sciences (including maths skills) in the first year and then allows specialisation to biosciences from the second year onwards.

As a scientist, I would strongly encourage my own DC to take this course over the course chosen by OP's DD - Natural Sciences will open options as interdiscplinary science is more and more important and moreover many secondary school students have very little knowledge of higher level science, so doing Natural Sciences allows exposure to higher level material before specialising.

[hayita]

But the French system does have its elite segment, which is far more exclusionary & elitist than most in Britain.

Yes, indeed. In the other thread I didn't say that I agreed with the French system.

Throughout most of Europe accountancy modules are not viewed in the same way as maths modules. In a country such as Holland, for example, accountancy modules aren't usually taught in university - they are taught in the analogue of our old polytechnics - so having accountancy modules on your CV would indeed suggest to Dutch employers that you weren't strong enough to do university level material. They don't know the nuances of the UK higher education system any more than most UK employers know about Dutch universities.

[Alwaysfrank]

I'm glad I didn't know any of this elitist nonsense back in the day! The accountancy degree had one of the highest grade requirements in the faculty iiirc. In fact I remember being sniffy about someone who came onto our course "via the back door" having started on an economics degree.

The employers certainly weren't put off - they came calling in the autumn term before the main milk round started, and everyone I knew had multiple offers to choose from.

[Needmoresleep]

I'm getting lost. Surely the point is that some children have more social capital and thus better access to informed advice. DH is an economist and DS is studying economics. It is natural for them to discuss options, content, who is teaching and so on. DS will make his own decisions but welcomes input. He is lucky he has an uncle who is a lawyer and one who is an engineer and so had he been studying a different subject he might well have had similar discussions with one of them. The type of school is part of this but not the only part.

There are some generous posters: Molio, Hayita and AlreadyTaken to name but three, who are willing to share their experience and knowledge. Indeed I am particuarly grateful to AlreadyTaken for helping steer me, and thus by extention DD, through the maze of Medical School applications. If "which Oxford College" is a legitimate question, which medical school is more so. No one is right all the time, but there are plenty whose views are worth hearing. The kneejerk response of "stealth boasting" or something about the inequity of state/private is tedious. Higher Education is a huge investment decision and kids have varying degrees of access to good advice. MN is not perfect but is another source of information.

I also think Littleham, upthread was right. It really depends on the child. Some need more help than others, for a variety of reasons. Yes, I never saw DS' PS. DD was very ill last summer so getting a UCAS application in by the October deadline was a real struggle. DC grow up pretty fast during Yr 13 and the first year of University. But some faster than others. With some really struggling and needing support from both home and school/University. There is no firm rule, but a case of trying to find the right balance.

FWIW I think Hayita is probably right in terms of her advice to OP about Natural Sciences. We certainly picked up similar when looking at Plan Bs for would be medic DD. And I am pretty sure that Hayita's points about Financial Maths are correct as well. DS's degree is overwhelmingly Financial Maths, yet he would not claim to be a mathematician.

[Quook]

[Quook]

. Some of us don't get patents evenings now. In theory my DCs school had them but the were reserved for kids that REALLY needed them and even then I think there was only a evening worth of appointments for hundreds of kids. Out of four kids I probably attended two parents and even then u didn't see al their teachers.

It wasn't the teachers fault.

So no, still no parents evening for some of us with kids at non selective schools

BTW - our kids choose their school and we're glad they went there. We could have paid privately and they had paces out of county for a grammar school so I'm not moaning in a bitter way.