Appealing the grade given for degree help!!

[Pippa000]

Ok I shall try and explain best I can with what dd has told me.
She was given her results for her degree today, she got a 2:2. It was 2 marks off a 2:1. She is very upset and frustrated at the same time, as the breakdown of her result were what she feared, the group module (made up large % of final mark) work was the let down, scored 43 . She said the rest of her modules and dissatation were in the 60's.
Her frustration lies with the group work which she knew from start that the group she was put in would hinder her marks as they consisted of 4 overseas students who's English wasn't up scratch, she does a politics course, dd was the only uk student in her group. There was only so much DD could do to try and correct things plus the guys in her group had lazy work ethics it was hard for her to get them in a group to work together on the project.
At the time she complained about this problem several times to her tutor, it fell on deaf ears he wouldn't at all budge on scoring the work on individual merits rather than as a group.
Now that her results are out she is in bits that she has worked so hard, scored consistently well on all the other modules and the group one has scuppered her results and not reflective of her work. She feels shes wasted 3 years of her life because of been put in a crap group. She rung the univesity up, they said theres nothing she can do as she has passed and it has already been classified.
I didn't go to uni so haven't a clue. Does she have any grounds of appealing, I feel for her as it does seem unfair, since she has been to see her tutor several times about the project to raise her concerns. Any advice welcomed
Thanks you, for reading this so far if you have managed to do so.

[LaVolcan]

Re the idea of a Masters: you may not need a 2:1. My son's experience might be helpful or not. He got a third in an engineering degree, which was entirely his fault for accepting a course for the wrong branch of engineering. He applied for a Masters and was told no, but he was offered a Diploma course, and if he proved himself on that, he could go onto the third term, which required a dissertation and gave the Masters. He accepted the Diploma course place, proved himself, and duly got the Masters. It was an anxious time, but he got there in the end.

Meanwhile, another student, who had been accepted directly for the Masters because he had a better class of degree, didn't do enough work and was booted off the course at the Diploma stage.

I think OU Masters degrees also only ask for an honours degree in the subject at UG level, so a 2:2 would be fine for them also.

So I would tell your DD not to lose heart - although she will need some time to lick her wounds, but all is by no means lost yet.

[Pippa000]

I was meant post my previous post to butterfly but I'm so raged I've seems have posted to myself??.
becca didn't receive your pm
lweji thanks for those links. I'm going to read with interest. She says all her exams this year are over 60.
Poor DD not home yet is nearly 4hr drive for DH to fetch her back.

[Want2bSupermum]

Jeanne My work was selected for review by a secondary assessor who was at a non Russell group university. It was their opinion that my grade should be lowered because of the fact I was attending a Russell group university so my work should have been a higher standard for the same grade. I have no problems with my work being assessed but I did have a problem with the subjectivity of the grading of the secondary reviewer. It followed no framework apart from the reviewer believing my work should have been awarded a much lower mark due to the institution I attended.

It's not snobby at all to question how one reviewer can assess my work as being worthy of a first while another reviewer assess my work 12 points, 2 classifications, lower. It's also not snobby to submit a request through the student union as to why this persons wrote in their assessment that based on their expectation of a Russell group 3rd year undergraduate student my work was not consistent with a student graduating with a first. After all I didn't just write a report. I also lead a research group and worked with two foreign institutions to gather evidence to back my paper. That was part of the reason I got a high grade from my institution. You know they recognized group work!

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

Really?

They actually told you 'you are at a Russell Group university, so the fact we're in a particular research network means we have to lower your grade'?

Or did they just lower your grade to bring you into line with the rest of the grades at your university?

I don't see why an assessor not from the Russell Group should be considered incapable of assessing what the standard was at your university. And I certainly don't see why you should get treated differently from everyone else at your university, who was being held to the standard s/he held you to.

That's the role an external examiner plays - to see if your work is consistent with the work of other people, at the same institution, getting a first. If they say it wasn't, it is snobby to object to their assessment on the basis that they themselves aren't from a university in that research network. It sounds as if you have a chip on your shoulder, to be frank.

[DoctorDoctor]

That's really not how external examining works, Want2b - not sure what you mean by 'secondary reviewer' as this isn't terminology used in the UK undergraduate system. Neither do externals go on about the expectations they have of Russell Group undergraduates; this again is terminology used a lot on MN but which examiners wouldn't use to one another. Your account of all this doesn't make sense.

[Want2bSupermum]

It was written on the report. My tutor was not happy and based on their recommendation I did appeal but was turned down because my degree had been awarded. I don't have a problem with the reviewer coming in from a secondary institution nor that they came in from a non Russell group. Their review said 'The report did not contain any substantial empirical analysis, therefore, a mark of 58 is awarded based on the expectation that a Russell group final year undergraduate should be able to manipulate the data available by respective government agencies. Such research conducted by the student focused on research already conducted by western institutions and didn't included sources from native institutions. This is expected from a Russell group institution.'

I don't think that as a review is fair and that I should have been marked down to such a low grade. I researched countless papers and didn't quote many of the Russian or Chinese ones in my work because the papers published by Chinese and Russian researchers attending Western institutions were far better. I did list all papers I had read in my bibliography and quite a few were from Chinese, Australian and Russian institutions. I also had a couple of papers written by researchers at Czech, Polish and German institutes.

Knowing what I know now I wouldn't have bothered with any university apart from Oxbridge in the UK. I graduated believing the exercise was one of social engineering rather than education. My degree only got me through the door for the CPA exams here in the US and even then I had to take 30 additional credits to be able to get my license. Everything else has been from me really hustling and having to prove myself in a more junior job before being promoted into the role I should have been hired at. Bitter yes. I hope the OPs DD is able to appeal and that her grade is reassessed as its not fair that she is punished for others not contributing.

[JeanneDeMontbaston]

I still really don't see what is wrong with that.

You were expecting them to mark you differently from your peers - they were explaining that marks are normalised against everyone else's. It seems a bit odd to put it in terms of the Russell Group, since as doctor says, that isn't a phrase academics use about undergrads, because it is a research grouping term. But to explain that your mark was brought into line with everyone else's at a second reading seems quite normal.

Years ago, my supervisor wrote for me that he personally thought my grade might have been higher. It was just a really nice thing to say, intended to make me feel better - it didn't mean his colleagues were wrong to give me what they gave me. It just means that sometimes people disagree and he wanted me to know he thought well of me.

I know grades matter, and I can see it is rotten when you feel you've worked hard and you don't get credit, but you can't let it eat away at you.

[spinoa]

The numbers quoted don't really make sense. The third year was worth 70%, the project was worth 30 credits (out of 120 credits needed in a final year). That means the project was worth 17.5% of the total mark.

If all other marks were 60% and this mark was 43% this would give a total of 58% using the weighting. If any of the other marks were above 60%, the total would be above 58% and hence likely to be rounded up to a 2:i. But somebody who had scored around 60% in all modules but one wouldn't have a very strong case for deserving a 2:i rather than a 2:2, since 60% is right on the boundary.

I have also never heard of presentations by individuals on a group project receiving a uniform score: what is the point of individual presentations if the score is uniform across the group?

I can't help but feel that the story isn't really complete: talking to the student union might help. (And as others have said complaining on the grounds that the other members of the group were overseas students is really not going to do anyone any favours. In my experience it is not usually the overseas students who write terrible English and have a poor work ethic.)

[FatherReboolaConundrum]

Hi OP,
Hope you are all feeling a bit better about this today. There's some good advice on this thread but also some things that are not such a good idea. For what it's worth, my advice as someone who is going to be spending the next month making decsions on appeals is:

1. Tell your daughter to give all correspondence she had with the department about the module to the SU advice team and to include it if she appeals. Don't bother with anything from Facebook etc where she's communicating with other group members because it's not relevant. The uni won't allow or dismiss an appeal based on whether the other students were crap (and forcing appeal board members to wade through pages of irrelevant material is not the way to get them on side), but they will be interested in any possible area of administrative error on the part of the department.
   

1. If she can show that this single grade is the difference between a 2.1 and a 2.2 then that's something that she should stress - again, linking it to the fact that she raised concerns about the organisation of the group project at the time (if she did).
   

1. Don't go in angry. Upset students get sympathy, aggressive ones tend to get short shrift.
   

1. Do not, whatever you do, bombard the department/faculty with messages. This is nothing to do with them anymore - the university have awarded the degree and it's entirely out of the department's/faculty's hands. You/your daughter will look aggressive (see above) and unhinged if you start sending them lots of messages now. If there is a case here then it will have to go through the university appeals process, so let that take its course.
   

1. If she appeals, she shouldn't complain about not knowing things it was her responsibility to know. So, if this was an optional module and she signed up for it having been given the chance to familiarise herself with how it was assessed (group project with group mark) in the module information she was give beforehand, then the fact she didn't take much notice is entirely her own responsibility. Few things are less likely to impress an appeals panel than an adult claiming that it was unfair that they didn't know about something critical (like how a module was assessed) when all the information was available to them in advance, if they'd bothered to look at it.
   

1. Remember that your daughter can't ask for something that the regulations don't allow and that would lead to unfairness. So if the module information is clear that everything is assessed collectively, she can't ask to be made an exception and given an individual mark because that would create an unfairness - whay should she get an individual mark when no-one else did?
   

Good luck!

[Pippa000]

I'm rather bleary eyed lack of sleep, dd came home early hours. I apologise if im writing incoherently. We've been up all morning looking at everything, results, dd's saved group work, social network correspondence between her and the ones in her group, emails to tutor. . DD has had to explain to us what has been happening for the last 6 months. Whilst having a breakdown, she's not seeing things any better. We working on that. I think she's in some sort of shock.
Like almost everyone else on here I was also rather confused with how things are worked out on dd's course and wondered if she has missed anything off or misinterpreted.
I can concretely say she has indeed scored over 60-70 in all her exams she has done better in her exams than her modules, all her modules are 60-64. I may have got them wrong way round in my earlier post but still they are good scores. It's in black white. The group module was split into 2 units scoring 43 in each. Group project is 1 unit and presentation 2nd unit. So she has 2 lots of 43. These 2 units took a higher proportion than her other modules of the overall grade. And this where it has cost her dearly. I'm trying to stay positive for all our sakes. She is extremely dissapointed with the presentation unit side as she passed her specification but because the rest of the group didn't and this was deemed a group presentation she has been given a group grade as a overall mark not a individual one. DD said that the presentation was disaster the 2 people that failed the course went on a tangent talking rubbish since they didn't turn up to the group talk, on how they were going to present their work in a cohesive and professional manner. DD said she broke down after the presentation as she could see the group collectively had failed to deliver. The lecturer tried to reassure her everything will be fine, she was hoping that they would give her a individual grade for it But obviously they haven't. I don't think they will budge either since the whole project was a group effort.
It's a good job the 2 that have failed will not be at graduation in a few weeks time as DH would probably bang their heads together. It's been shocking to see the social network messages between them as dd tried in vain to get them to come together as group or get them to send her the work as she was the team leader. DD has had to bribe them with buying them breakfast at McDonald's to get them out of bed!. One of them whats apped her to say he's in no fit state to do work he's just had a spliff!!!. Seriously words fail me! . I feel for dd I didn't realise the extent of what she had to put up with in the group. It's only when you see the messages, can you sense the magnitude how selfish and lazy this group really is, it's really making my blood boiling.
I'm not really optimistic that dd is going to get justice as this was suppose to be a team effort. And I'm guessing they will stand by this. In the real world lazy arses and those that dont play ball would be sacked. We are now in the process of printing, screen shot's of messages and emails for dd to take to the student union appointment she has tommorow. She has managed to get a 6 week paid internship at the council so I'm hoping that will lift her spirits. She's just overly worried how she's going to compete for jobs with others with her 2:2.
thanks becca for the pm. Im showing dd your message to give her some hope and inspiration.

[Pippa000]

father thank you very much on how to help dd with appeals. I've only just noticed your message as it's taken me so long to write my above post??

[MrsHathaway]

The private messages with the other students may be irrelevant to her appeal but they could be used to support a suggestion that the grading/weighting be changed for future years. It does sound like a bad state of affairs when one student's final degree class can be sabotaged by another.

I'm glad you're feeling better today. Hope things look clearer soon.

[MrsHathaway]

And congratulations on the paid internship! If that goes well it will soon be worth more than her precise degree class anyway, and she doesn't have to share it with anyone.

[FatherReboolaConundrum]

Hi OP,

Hope it's some help. For what it's worth, I suspect any appeals panel is likely to be sympathetic to your daughter - it's an awful position for her to be in. So, if they can find a way to help her they probably will want to.

One of the things that doesn't get talked about much outside universities but is, in my experience, universally true, is that universities are very nervous about appeals to the OIA, which is where students go if their appeals to the university are unsuccessful and if they think they've been unfairly treated. Unis hate losing OIA appeals - really, really, hate it. So if there's any area, however small, where the department has screwed up procedurally then they may well side with your daughter in order to avoid the dreaded OIA.

Let us know how she gets on.

[DorisLessingsCat]

FatherReboolaConundrum gives really good advice. You need to be as dispassionate and logical as possible.

Get a copy of the appeals policy and process and follow it to the letter.

Best of luck x

[Georgina1975]

I have a lot of sympathy with you OP and you're daughter. We have had a handful of people on the phone to our Department this morning - some unhappy with their degree classification. It is very difficult.

1. Get a full breakdown of her marks. The module module marks are what you need - what she achieved on individual assessments is not especially relevant. Apart from...
   

1. Regarding the presentation. I would have advised the student to complete a form of mitigation. This is where a student requests that particular issues (supported by evidence) are taken into account when marks are determined. This usually happens at module board or programme board. Most institutions have a similar process. I have helped students with retrospective mitigation; however, there has to be a very good reason why such processes are not followed in a timely fashion (soon after the assessment has taken place) - it will not be enough to say she didn't know about such possibilities as students are expected to make themselves aware of the regulations.
   

1. Ensure that you have the relevant guidance and regulations. As other people have said, regulations can vary between institutions. Students (and parents) often misunderstand the process. I have dealt with two people this morning who are unhappy about their classification on the basis of being "borderline". But you are not automically given the higher classification at our University. A student would require 50% of more of module marks in the higher category to be considered.
   

1. I actually think going to the SU in the first instance is quite poor advice. Think of it like work. We don't often go straight to the union with a problem. In any case, they will probably advise your daughter to speak with her Department in the first instance. She can ask to speak to her personal supervisor, year tutor, the examinations officer, the Head of Department etc. it would be better if she did this, but you could speak on her behalf with signed consent from you daughter (the Department should have a form that you can complete). The Departmet will also have access to the module board and programme board minutes (this is where module marks and degree classifications are confirmed).

[Georgina1975]

Sorry about all the spelling mistakes too (typing fast on a train) and the very best of luck!

[UptheChimney]

At this stage, the main grounds for appeal will be procedural irregularity or if there is something materially affecting a student which the examiners did not know about. That's a précis of my place's regs, anyway.

You really really need to look at the exam regs. They should be easily available on the university's website.

My advice - to add to the already excellent advice you've received - would be to pursue the procedural irregularity on the grounds that your DD informed the tutor of the difficulties with the group and no moderating assessment was made to test and check that.

I use group work a lot: it's essential preparation for work and models his we learn through collaboration. But I am quite assertive about checking group oricess and intervening if there are difficulties. And we always have the option of individual marks.

Her appeal might be that there was no process by which lack of work by others (and she has the email trail) was moderated or otherwise mitigated.

However, as others have said, one 3rd shouldn't have brought the classification down so much, unless she was pretty borderline anyway.

There's a rather significant difference between a student getting 60 to 64/5 and a student getting 67s and 68 s

The firmer is borderline, and your DD's profile leading to a 2, ii is not out of line.

[chemenger]

I am on the appeal committee of my university and I endorse much of the advice that has been given by pp's.

-Your dd needs to take the advice of her SU advisors, they will have guided many students through the process before.

-Read any guidance on appeals and be very clear what grounds you are appealing on, these may be quite narrow and specific.

-Be very clear about all the regulations around borderline cases, in my bit of my university we round from 0.5 below the borderline and allow for special circumstances and that is it, so 58% would always remain as a 2.2 for us, no matter what the distribution of module marks. In other places this is different, they may consider either the overall distribution or the balance of 2nd and 3rd year marks.

-It is worth approaching your department for information and there is no harm in asking whether they took into account the concerns they had raised. You can ask to see the minutes of the exam board for that module, although this will be restricted (if they refuse you can make a Freedom of Information request). However there is probably little they can do at this stage so don't bombard them with demands.

-I have to warn that retrospective appeals for special consideration are usually refused here, unless there is good reason for not bringing things up formally before the results are out. Good reason is difficult to establish, thinking it wouldn't matter, ie expecting to get a better degree despite the problem, is not good reason. That's not to say that would be the same in all universities.

My concern here is the extent to which a group mark is being used in honours assessment, it would not happen where I am, in major group projects there is always a substantial individual part of the mark, to avoid the problem your dd now has. A poor group should not automatically mean a poor mark for everyone, that makes a substantial part of the degree classification down to luck. As an appeal committee we would probably discuss this and advise the department informally to reconsider this for the future. Unfortunately, though, I don't think the appeal would be upheld here.

[namechangeforissue]

I have to say that the marks you are stating really don't seem to add up, so there is something missing perhaps from the regulations that you don't know about?

If as PP have said all the other marks apart from the 43 were dead on 60 she'd have 58. However, the OP now says that most of the marks were well over 60 including some in 3rd year that were over 70. So the mean must have been at least approaching 60 e.g. 59.something.

Though it is of course possible that as in some PP's institutions a single or two marks of a different classification brings the degree down a class. We also aren't sure of that from the OP.

A lot of universities have their regulations available online. Have you looked at these?

The two 43 marks aren't each being double counted, one of them is being counted once and the other one is being counted once, if the whole module is 30 credits and other modules are 15 credits. It sounds like other students in other groups got different marks in the two sections of the module, it's just the group she was in which coincidentally got the same mark in both sections.

You also haven't said whether this is a compulsory or optional module (I would be on board with a department having an entirely group work optional module but it does seem odd to have an entirely group work compulsory module. In my field all students do a compulsory practical project and some carry out the practical work in groups but they all write it up individually, for example, though we have other modules that are all or almost all group work, they are optional.).

[UptheChimney]

Chemenger as usual speaks volumes of wisdom.

At my place, students are expected to appeal at the time of the individual assessment result. A retrospective appeal has to have very good grounds, and a good explanation of why the student didn't bring the situation (grounds for appeal) to the attention of he examiners at the time.

Your DD did inform the tutor that there was a problem, so that's why I'd recommend appealing on the grounds of a procedural irregularity.

Although ... the array of marks you indicate looks like a borderline 2,i / 2, ii to me. And most university marking systems really try to give the student the benefit of the doubt (it's really hard to fail, there are so many second chances!).

The Student Union will have seen lots of these situations, and can advise. Follow their advice.

[Becca19962014]

I hope the PM is of some help to her, and I hope her internship with the council goes well - that's a really positive thing for her to have on her CV.

[Pippa000]

its been a very exhausting day my brain is frazzled so much things to take in. So much things dd has said repeating again and again to make me understand how her grades have been worked out.
Many many thanks to everyone up thread for helping my DD along. She has a renewed energy to at least fight and air her grievance , if it doesn't amount to much at least the dept should be awares of the dangers of having too much group work as part of assesement for final year
We have taken as much notes as we can to strengthen dd's argument, making sure we haven't left anything out from all the suggestion up thread we feel like defence lawyers We couldn't get this far without the support and help. DD assured us she will be very polite and diplomatic when she speaks to SU.
I will do my best to explain her results:-
She got 2 lots of 44 = 30 credits 15 credits each module both modules she worked with had same crappy group. Both had project and presentation. Sorry i made it sound like she had done two 30 credit modules both achieving 44 earlier on. Its because the 2 modules both have the same first name 'global' so thought they were both linked together = 30 credits but no they both separate 15 credits each. She got lumbered with same crappy group on both because logistically it would be easier for them to do work together since they shared similar timetables and on same degree course. Most of other students on these 2 module come from either marketing or HRM.
Somebody asked up thread whether her module was optional the answer is yes. She absolutely regrets ever taking these 2 types of business modules she wishes she stuck to politics modules as she thought at the time it would be better to have mix of politics, international relations and business modules. All the business modules are group work. Plus the 2 core modules have elements of group work, assessment and exam. Hence why she's ended up with group work making it a huge deciding factor on her degree classification. Had she had chosen 2 politics as she did in year 2 she would probably achieved far better, as her scores are better when done individually. The 2 compulsory module 30 credits she got overall 60 in one and the other 64 she had exams in both these modules achieving 67&68 which are already woven in the overall score given, her dissitation scored 64. Hope you are all following so far ??? this has all ended up with 58 which is 2 marks off 2:1. I know everyone is trying to fathom out her scores so hopefully I've explained it so its understandable. It's so complicated ?? No wonder I don't have a degree.

[Pippa000]

Urgh DD got two scores of 43! Not 44 I'm losing my mind