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Guest post: "We need to ask why women aren't choosing engineering"

126 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 23/06/2015 11:22

I am no stranger to 'male-dominated industries'. After setting up my own manufacturing company, I never got used to feeling like the stranger in the saloon at trade shows filled with men, or to correcting people who asked me where the boss was. And from there I moved into politics – another field where men have historically ruled the roost, although women are increasingly, and crucially, making their presence felt.

Today is National Women in Engineering Day. It is a fantastic opportunity to celebrate women in engineering, and to showcase the many achievements of women in this sector. But with women still so under-represented in engineering, I also see it as an important occasion to think about what we can do, as government, as business and as individuals, to help redress the balance in the sector.

The UK has the lowest proportion of female engineers in Europe - fewer than 10%. We need to ask why young women aren't choosing these fascinating careers and what the barriers are which prevent or discourage them.

This is not just an issue of diversity. According to the Pearson/CBI Education and Skills Survey 2014, 39% of firms looking for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths) skills and knowledge already have difficulties recruiting staff, and over half expect to have problems in the next three years. Faced with this shortage, it would be ludicrous from a business perspective too, not to take advantage of the huge amount of talent amongst our women and girls. This is something that I, and the Secretary of State for Education and Minister for Women and Equalities, Nicky Morgan, are very passionate about supporting.

The first step is to encourage girls to keep studying STEM subjects at school and university. It's a huge shame that while as many girls as boys achieve the top grades in maths and science at GCSE, far fewer girls progress to A level. Only 19% of those who achieve an A* in GCSE physics, for example, continue to A level, compared with about half of boys. And this pattern continues at university, with women taking up only 14% of engineering places.

This is why the government is supporting the Your Life campaign, which aims to boost the number of young people taking A level physics and maths by 50% within three years, and to double the proportion of undergraduate engineering and technology degrees taken by women by 2030, including by connecting young people to key figures from industry who can help them on their way to careers in STEM. The campaign also asks business to take action to increase female participation in these sectors, for example by pledging to increase diversity on their apprenticeship schemes, or to initiate women's networks within their companies. Over 200 organisations have signed up to date.

Part of the issue is entrenched ideas of 'male' and 'female' careers, which we know have already formed when children are at primary school. Girls need to choose from the broadest range of careers, and not feel they will be funnelled by society's conventions into particular roles. Young women tell us they value their parents' support when making choices about education and careers, but we know that parents do not always feel equipped to help them navigate these crucial decisions. For this reason we recently published a guide for parents, Your Daughter's Future, to provide information on the range of choices girls face in thinking about their future careers, and to support parents to challenge gender expectations.

It's also important that young women have strong role models to attract them into the sector. People like Roma Agrawal, one of the inspiring structural engineers who worked on the Shard and Barb Samardzich, the Chief Operating Officer for Ford of Europe. The government also funds STEMNET's STEM Ambassadors programme, which sends over 30,000 volunteers working in science, engineering and technology into schools across the UK to inspire young people – and it's fantastic that 40% of them are women.

These programmes, as well as the excellent work being done by all the organisations involved in National Women in Engineering Day, will ensure that more girls have the knowledge, skills and confidence to fulfil their potential in the engineering sector. Initiatives like these are crucial to make sure that girls are able to benefit from the many and varied opportunities the engineering sector offers, and that the engineering sector can benefit from the widest possible talent base. The UK needs to recruit 83,000 new engineers every year over the next decade in order to remain competitive – this is talent we can't afford to ignore.

OP posts:
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wonkylegs · 24/06/2015 13:31

I think a lot of professions are a bit of a mystery to the general public and misconceptions and prejudices flourish in those circumstances. I've had people tell me that architecture isn't a STEM career, they honestly believed that I just drew pretty pictures for a living. When I go into schools I try to expand the definition of what I do to kids. I tend to play down drawing buildings and look at the different skills. I work in a specialism which many people don't always think of as architecture but as an illustration it expands what kids think of and grabs their imagination which is good.
I don't recognise the image of engineers as geeky or boring ( some are but tbh I know a lot of drs and they are far worse), I've socialised with lots of construction engineers and had some fab fab nights out. I think nights out when you are all one profession you can end up talking shop which can be a bit geeky but that's the same for all professions.

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CMOTDibbler · 24/06/2015 13:32

Yes, my stuff has mechanical design, firmware, software, electrical and other engineers. Agile isn't so good a process for the larger mechanical projects, but we still use the same principles of discuss early and often.

People often tell me they'd never thought about all that goes into developing medical devices, and its a really interesting area.

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ErrolTheDragon · 24/06/2015 13:37

Yes - I write scientific software (my job title is randomly scientist, analyst or engineer Grin) and those are exactly the methodologies we use.

'the solid base of boring old maths and physics'
WTF is boring about maths and physics? My DD gets quite irate with classmates who come out with that line! Though perhaps part of the problem is that at GCSE, quite a bit of maths is arithmetic and U1 and some of U2 physics is too much 'about physics' rather than physics. (same with other sciences) She said she was sorry for people who don't do triple science as they don't sufficiently get to the interesting bits, similarly FM.

She's been complaining about her post GCSE holiday homework. Not enough of it, especially maths! So (at DHs instigation but enthusiastically) she's just done an O-level maths paper for fun! Grin (he's having to do it now cos the answers aren't published, very good for him I'm sure!)

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VenusRising · 24/06/2015 13:46

Sorry if I personally offended anyone with the quote "engineers are cold and dead inside", it was a quote from a Swedish survey, and I thought it was more widespread as a meme than it obviously is. It certainly is round where I am, but then, I hang out with nerds, and we can laugh at ourselves, and do frequently!

Here's the link to the Swedish survey that started the meme


If you haven't already, have a look at Sasha Baron Cohen's work on systemising and empathising and the male brain, it's fascinating work. From my own experience and anectdotal evidence from my friends who are married to engineers, I think it's a tough call to fall in love with an engineer, or anyone who is a high systemiser, with low empathy. Family life isn't great and a lot of them have split up.

As I said, why push girls to work in engineering, where the pay is low, and they have in the main, high systemisers and low empathisers as colleagues.
Why not work in the city, where at least pay is high, even if the colleagues are as unpleasant.

Toys, maths isn't boring. There are lots of online resources to do some reconnaissance, if you're rusty - the khan academy is excellent. Give it a whirl, and surprise yourself.

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ErrolTheDragon · 24/06/2015 13:57

I might have more time for any reasearch Sacha Baron Cohen might have done in that area than some of what I've seen from Simon Baron Cohen TBH.

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 13:58

But I'm scared! I can't see a narrative there! It's all... ehm.. numbers? I love a good story and see the ins and outs of reasons for all sorts of things, I easily step into other people's shoes and am an excellent diplomat, but.. maths.. it's just black and white to me. Cold. Lacking in interest. Hence I've never reached a point where I would have found it interesting. I see how things like relativity, astrophysics etc. can be fascinating, but.. getting there... naaah.

I think we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and would do well to take them jnto account. I think maths and physics are biologically more suited to a stereotypical male brain, but of course a lot has to do with environment, as well..

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 14:01

Tehee.. Sascha Baron Cohen... Isn't Simon Sascha's dad (or uncle)? ToM and extreme male brain (re autism), were very much de rigueur when I was doing psychology at Uni..

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ErrolTheDragon · 24/06/2015 14:07

Not finding something enthralling yourself doesn't actually mean it's boring you know. I can't really get my head around opera or modern art but that's me not it IYSWIM.

As to 'stereotypically male brains' ... if you want to perpetuate the stereotype threats which are one of the factors which prevent perfectly able girls from being confident at maths and physics, keep going with that one. Please can I suggest you read Delusions of Gender if you want to understand why it's so problematic (the stereotypes, the overinterpretation of neuroimaging etc).

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Engineerwhy · 24/06/2015 14:09

Propagating the idea that maths and physics is by nature more suited to a male brain is really not helping anyone, may it be existing female engineers/ scientists or aspiring ones.

Interestingly, when personal computers were invented, there were a lot of women involved in the newly formed computer science. It's only in the 80's that it became a men's game.

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 14:15

Sorry, should have said, boring to me (and a fair few people). BTW, I don't really like Opera much either, apart from a few popular, classical pieces. Also, I don't profess to know everything or an answer to the engineering and girls dilemma-just giving a point of view. I'm not very invested in this issues, so have not done any further research. Merely saying what I learned at a Russell Group Uni 9 years ago. Research always moves on, of course, and is not without agenda. Thing us, it's all very plausible this male brain stuff, IME. But plausible doesn't mean anything, necessarily...

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Goldrill · 24/06/2015 14:15

I think this perception of the salary thing is a bit odd. I'm a scientist, working for gov agency, as is my DH. We're both early 40s and MSc/PhD and full professional memberships, and we are both on around £32k. That's good for our fields. If all goes well, we will both be on £40 to 45k in the next decade or so.

I have a good job which I love, and I wouldn't change fields if you doubled my salary: and a lot of people must feel the same because there are no shortage of specialists at my grade who are intelligent enough to take their pick of careers. My employer is really family friendly and the working environment is great. I am frequently challenged and expect to have to think hard a lot, and take on responsibility - a great job!

I don't think I'm the exception, and I don't think it's the money which is putting people off engineering...

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Engineerwhy · 24/06/2015 14:51

45k towards end of career in London (where a lot of the big consultancies and international architects office are located) is not a brilliant salary, especially if you work in a leading role in your industry.

There's only so long that the love of the job will keep you happy when you can't save for a house or afford a family :S

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 15:49

Toys I think maths and physics are biologically more suited to a stereotypical male brain. And that just sums up what exactly is wrong with girls and STEM in the UK. If you look at a class of engineers in India or Malaysia, for example, you'll see a lot more girls. That's proof that it isn't especially suited for male brains. It's totally cultural that we are raising girls to think they can't do physical sciences.

Same as driving. There are many women who convinced themselves they can't drive. That doesn't seem to be the case at all in NZ where I grew up.

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Lancelottie · 24/06/2015 16:00

The problem with 'I think maths and physics are biologically more suited to a stereotypical male brain' is that Baron-Cohen pretty much decides that 'stereotypical male brain' = one that likes systematic things like maths, so it all gets a bit circular. Why the heck didn't he just call them stereotypical 'mathy brain' and stereotypical, I dunno, 'feely brain' ?

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duplodon · 24/06/2015 16:11

My dh is an engineer and would have about 40% female staff in his office with an even split at his level (Senior) and Principal though no women in top management. Over all though, it's not very well paid as a discipline for the work that it is and he would HATE any of our boys to end up as engineers. So I think there are major issues in the whole industry in terms of recruitment and retention.

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duplodon · 24/06/2015 16:16

"Friends of mine who are hitched to engineers are aften astounded at how callous and indifferent to emotions of those around them they seem, and how disconnected they are to their children. Imvho they all appear to be on the aspie"

!!!
Not my experience at all. Dh and I are currently engaged in a battle over whether it's okay to put our third, a 15 month old, in his cot and wean him off cosleeping. Dh says he enjoys the cuddles too much. I can't think of any of his work friends or old uni friends who even vaguely fit this bill. I have met some men in scientific fields like this and there used to be a joke about the mech eng's having no social skills when we were all at uni but it's such a huge field, that's unbelievably generalising!

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chippednailvarnish · 24/06/2015 16:22

I think maths and physics are biologically more suited to a stereotypical male brain

Clearly it must just be sterotypical British male brains as plenty of other countries don't have the issues we have with women in STEM.

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 16:27

Or other countries are able to overcome this by setting more favourable environmental conditions. Or something else..

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 16:38

toys the favourable condition might have been an emphais in the sciences at least at GCSE and A levels. My parents are from Hong Kong and the top set secondary class was always the science class. You are expected to take triple science and further maths. The reasoning being that the arts didn't require specific subject to enter at university level while the sciences do. For example my dad did all sciences at the equivalent A levels and entered law school. That's very typical. It shows it is possible for girls to achieve top marks in STEM subjects, at least at secondary level. Obviously many will choose a non STEM subject in university but that applies to both males and females.

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 16:41

I firmly believe if you think you can do it you can. There is mental block in British females thinking they are supposedly to be rubbish at STEM. And the boys are quick to tell the girls that's for boys too. Further undermining females to excel in the area.

My daughter is 4 and already I heard in preschool some boys telling girls certain things are boys only. It is very sad.

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 16:45

Hong Kong does more subjects at the equivalent A levels btw.

I did mine in NZ. The university bursary exam had five subjects. It is fairly easy to take English in addition to sciences.

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Bilberry · 24/06/2015 17:38

It was only a couple of centuaries ago that (upper class) British women were expected to confine themselves to such frivolities as maths and science and leave the proper hard subjects of classics, theology or philosophy to the men...

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Eustace · 24/06/2015 18:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lastnightiwenttomanderley · 24/06/2015 19:24

I'm a doubly chartered engineer and love it. About to go on Maternity leave but will definitely be coming back. I enjoy what I do and I know I'm good at it (i'm normally much more modest but part of the problem us female engineers have is a tendancy to downplay our successes). I've led teams to create world class buildings and get such a buzz from that.

I get incredibly pissed off with the cold/unemotional/socially inept stereotype that some people peddle - I even know some (ime always male) engineers who seem to wear it as a badge of honour. Good for you, but that's not the engineering world I occupy and proudly proclaiming that is not going to do you any favours.

Salary wise, I don't think £50k plus after eight years is too bad. Yes, I could have gone into finance with my degree but I enjoy what I do and earn enough to afford the lifestyle I want.

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VenusRising · 24/06/2015 19:37

Oh yes! Ha! Simon Baron Cohen might be a better one to look up- innit!

Fwiw, I don't think 30K is a good salary for full time, topping out at 50K. That's why I left for IT.

Duplo I think we are both arguing from anecdotal evidence- most of the engineers I know have been divorced by their ever increasingly infuriated non eng wives. Some of them hardly make eye contact, but are good enough dads I suppose, when kids are little, if all schedules are spelled out for them, and children come with their backpacks ready packed by their mums. Not exactly a coparent situation rather a babysitter.
Of course there will be exceptions!

Retention is a problem with all field based professionals imvho. Just when a woman needs to get down to having kids, her male colleagues are able to put in a stint abroad or in a difficult / intensive situation to widen their experience/ research and get a promotion.

Women are bound by their biology to have to have kids in their 20 s and 30s. Leaving it till "later" in the belief that assisted reproduction such as IUI, IVF and ICSI is available, and will work seamlessly, is a mugs game, and a heartbreaking one.

Most women leave academic science after their PhD for this reason - I did too.

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