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Guest post: "We need to ask why women aren't choosing engineering"

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MumsnetGuestPosts · 23/06/2015 11:22

I am no stranger to 'male-dominated industries'. After setting up my own manufacturing company, I never got used to feeling like the stranger in the saloon at trade shows filled with men, or to correcting people who asked me where the boss was. And from there I moved into politics – another field where men have historically ruled the roost, although women are increasingly, and crucially, making their presence felt.

Today is National Women in Engineering Day. It is a fantastic opportunity to celebrate women in engineering, and to showcase the many achievements of women in this sector. But with women still so under-represented in engineering, I also see it as an important occasion to think about what we can do, as government, as business and as individuals, to help redress the balance in the sector.

The UK has the lowest proportion of female engineers in Europe - fewer than 10%. We need to ask why young women aren't choosing these fascinating careers and what the barriers are which prevent or discourage them.

This is not just an issue of diversity. According to the Pearson/CBI Education and Skills Survey 2014, 39% of firms looking for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths) skills and knowledge already have difficulties recruiting staff, and over half expect to have problems in the next three years. Faced with this shortage, it would be ludicrous from a business perspective too, not to take advantage of the huge amount of talent amongst our women and girls. This is something that I, and the Secretary of State for Education and Minister for Women and Equalities, Nicky Morgan, are very passionate about supporting.

The first step is to encourage girls to keep studying STEM subjects at school and university. It's a huge shame that while as many girls as boys achieve the top grades in maths and science at GCSE, far fewer girls progress to A level. Only 19% of those who achieve an A* in GCSE physics, for example, continue to A level, compared with about half of boys. And this pattern continues at university, with women taking up only 14% of engineering places.

This is why the government is supporting the Your Life campaign, which aims to boost the number of young people taking A level physics and maths by 50% within three years, and to double the proportion of undergraduate engineering and technology degrees taken by women by 2030, including by connecting young people to key figures from industry who can help them on their way to careers in STEM. The campaign also asks business to take action to increase female participation in these sectors, for example by pledging to increase diversity on their apprenticeship schemes, or to initiate women's networks within their companies. Over 200 organisations have signed up to date.

Part of the issue is entrenched ideas of 'male' and 'female' careers, which we know have already formed when children are at primary school. Girls need to choose from the broadest range of careers, and not feel they will be funnelled by society's conventions into particular roles. Young women tell us they value their parents' support when making choices about education and careers, but we know that parents do not always feel equipped to help them navigate these crucial decisions. For this reason we recently published a guide for parents, Your Daughter's Future, to provide information on the range of choices girls face in thinking about their future careers, and to support parents to challenge gender expectations.

It's also important that young women have strong role models to attract them into the sector. People like Roma Agrawal, one of the inspiring structural engineers who worked on the Shard and Barb Samardzich, the Chief Operating Officer for Ford of Europe. The government also funds STEMNET's STEM Ambassadors programme, which sends over 30,000 volunteers working in science, engineering and technology into schools across the UK to inspire young people – and it's fantastic that 40% of them are women.

These programmes, as well as the excellent work being done by all the organisations involved in National Women in Engineering Day, will ensure that more girls have the knowledge, skills and confidence to fulfil their potential in the engineering sector. Initiatives like these are crucial to make sure that girls are able to benefit from the many and varied opportunities the engineering sector offers, and that the engineering sector can benefit from the widest possible talent base. The UK needs to recruit 83,000 new engineers every year over the next decade in order to remain competitive – this is talent we can't afford to ignore.

OP posts:
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camelfinger · 23/06/2015 20:28

Nearly all the engineers I know, male or female, have left the industry to pursue more lucrative careers in finance, IT and banking where you don't generally need a PhD.
I studied maths and science at A level, and enjoyed the maths part, but found much of physics dry and too complex. By the time I was choosing university courses I was more interested in something where you could form arguments rather than learning facts and equations. It would have been more appealing to me if science was taught in more of an applied fashion. It's only now that I appreciate how science is involved in everything so I do regret not sticking with it to an extent.

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 20:34

I completely agree about the applied sciences thing. I find neuroscience and by extention cognitive science fascinating, but I just do not have the maths/physics base for some of the cognitive sciences (informatics) things. Oh well. I think it seems to set a bit of a divide with the cognitive science (mainly) men and neuroscience/psychology (mainly) women..

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CalmYoBadSelf · 23/06/2015 20:44

My DH is in a senior engineering role and has just recruited a young, female engineer who is, apparently, excellent

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chippednailvarnish · 23/06/2015 20:57

You only have to look at the recent threads complaining about the sexist sterotyping seen in Friends Lego to see that girls options are steered away from STEM from an early age.
Interestingly as someone who has a degree in construction, I had a harder time from the women I encountered than the men.

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MoreBeta · 23/06/2015 21:06

Frankly I am sick of hearing the engineering industry whining about not being able to find enough recruits.

It just doesn't pay enough to attract graduates from UK universities. It does attract foreign (usually from developing countries) engineers who only come here in the hope of gaining residence rights and in any case will be paid more than back home.

When I was at business school in the 1990 doing my MBA all the engineers on the course were trying to change career because the firms they worked for had condemned them to 'technical' roles and they were not seen as 'mangers'.

The most common degree for a FTSE 100 Chief Executive in the UK is history. Engineering does not lead to top level management jobs. Tells you everything you need to know.

If you have a physics or maths degree the finance industry will pay you 5, 10, 20 times more than an engineering role in industry.

I really think 'encouraging girls' into engineering is just encouraging them into a low pay and low status career. The engineering industry didn't want girls until the boys quit the industry for better pay elsewhere. Same as always. Girls encouraged into in low pay dead end jobs while men are in high pay and high status jobs.

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ErrolTheDragon · 23/06/2015 21:21

But morebeta, at the moment too few girls are doing the maths/ physics at A level so they're cutting themselves out of those well paid numerate roles too. Even if their aspirations are merely to build their bank balances rather than real stuff, getting more to stay with those subjects beyond GCSE is surely a good thing.

The preponderance of history graduates vs engineers in the UK might explain a lot about the decline of manufacturing industry here versus Germany (where engineers are better valued). You'd have hoped historians would at least not been so bloody short sighted as sometimes seems to be the case. Hmm That's another story though.

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 21:29

My DF was an engineer and a managing director in a large manufacturing company. He was highly respected by his staff, who felt that he knew exactly what they were doing and how the product was made. Unfortunately, his focus on process and practical issues made him quit in the end, just short of retirement age, as other "smooth talking" non-technical managers were more favoured by the company owners, whereas DF was constantly harangued by impossible demands to reduce production costs and told to lay off important technical staff.. Sad

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MoreBeta · 23/06/2015 21:35

Errol - it may well be that girls who get A* in physics GCSE are choosing to do biology, chemistry AND maths and then go on to Medicine degree courses. I believe that girls outweigh boys in medicine now.

I know two girls who got A* GCSE in physics but chose the biology, chemistry, maths then medical degree route.

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MoreBeta · 23/06/2015 21:40

I suspect also that the massively more prevalent Aspergers traits in boys tend to encourage boys natural interests in technical pass times and academic subjects ad that is a major reason why more boys choose physics than girls.

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SunHighInTheSky · 23/06/2015 21:47

Yes to MoreBeta's posts. I think in the UK people do engineering despite the lowish status compared with doing Law, Medicine, History or PPE or many other degrees.

In other European countries the status is high, so more varied (in all ways) people take engineering degrees.

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MoreBeta · 23/06/2015 21:49

ToysRLuv - that story about your DF is exactly what my colleagues on the MBA course said in the 1990s hence their desperation to move away from engineering technical roles in their mid 30s to avoid being trapped.

People who can do selling, marketing and other soft skills as well as finance gain the highest rewards now in UK business. Engineers are seen as people who are 'cost base' not a 'revenue generator'.

In any case manufacturing always moves to low cost countries so manufacturing engineers in those countries will get jobs and those in high cost countries like UK will lose theirs or face stagnant or falling wages for ever. Of course we still need some specific types of engineers, for example, like the engineers who worked on the Crossrail project where the UK leads the world in tunnelling technology.

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Owllady · 23/06/2015 22:10

My partner is a highly skilled engineer (lower and upper degree) in an extremely skilled field, treated like a God in mainland europe, like a nuisance unskilled skivvy here
I think you need to look more into why people leave engineering and why people don't want to join, whether they are male or female
It's a disgrace

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newgirl · 23/06/2015 22:12

Morebeta your replies have been so useful thank you

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elephantoverthehill · 23/06/2015 22:24

I teach Technology. Today we had the Stem roadshow in for y7&8 . It was pretty similar to the one my son saw a few years ago which made him decide to aeronautical engineering at UWE. Next up we are doing the women into Engineering Day. Some boys are pretty fed up because it is girls only. However neither gender have quite worked out why my 'pin-up' is Brunel.

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Athousandtrees · 23/06/2015 22:27

I agree about the wages in engineering we have huge responsibility on site managing budgets, public, government clients yet 25k is norm. However men are often paid more as younger females are seen as taking a "years holiday" (this was said to me recently by my line manager, a happily married family of 3!) To have babies.
Though this may be the same in other industries.
An older engineer (male) told me when I started, no one does engineering for the money.

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DoreenLethal · 23/06/2015 22:31

I enjoyed subjects where a bit of personal yhinking/or bullshitting was actively couraged..

That's interesting, I always found engineering to be a problem solving/quick thinking kind of subject.

I spent 24 years in civil engineering and then in the construction industry training board and can tell you exactly why women don't want to go into the industry. It is still looked at as weird, women have to do more work to prove themselves for less pay than the men.

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elephantoverthehill · 23/06/2015 22:33

Sorry if I appeared flippant. I just wanted you professionals to know that we are really trying at grassroots level.

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MoreBeta · 23/06/2015 22:37

My plumber and my electrician make about £30- 35k per annum. OK they have been in the trade 10 -20 years but even so. They have no degrees at all.

I cant believe engineers with degrees are being paid £25k per annum. A secretary in the City is paid far more.

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 22:39

This is a bit off topic, but relatives with phDs in chemistry and biology are also stuck in lowish paying lowish status roles, while the management is composed of business, finance and law graduates. My aunt regrets ever getting into chemistry Sad ..

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 22:46

IME, business, finance, law, medicine and software engineering/computer programming are the best paid graduate careers paths. I wished I could do the latter, as it's a fab self employed, very much in demand, well paid role, in which you can work from anywhere in the world, largely at your own time table to a set deadline.

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elephantoverthehill · 23/06/2015 22:49

Agreed but you can't point at something and say I made this.

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VenusRising · 23/06/2015 22:55

I agree with morebeta.
I left STEM for IT as I couldn't afford not to, as the pay was SHITE.
The working conditions were the best thing about it- not seeing people for weeks at a time and, in effect, camping out, with heavy equipment to carry in all weathers up and down mountains, was bliss compared to the casual everyday sexism and fucking "banter" back in the lab and office.

Most engineers I know are "cold and dead inside" - some have startlingly low empathy to go along with their high systemising. Who wants to work with these blokes? And for so little money?
and when you want to do "women's things" like have babies, the worm turns, and suddenly you realise you're not on the same track at all, if indeed you ever were.



Friends of mine who are hitched to engineers are aften astounded at how callous and indifferent to emotions of those around them they seem, and how disconnected they are to their children. Imvho they all appear to be on the aspie spectrum.



Stem subjects are all fine and dandy but I won't encourage my DD to be an engineer.
She'd have more fun as an actuary in the City, more money too with better company.

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 22:59

"I made this" sadly does not always pay your mortgage, holidays abroad and/or your children's uni fees..

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ToysRLuv · 23/06/2015 22:59

Forgot retirement!

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elephantoverthehill · 23/06/2015 23:07

But isn't that the reason why we want to encourage more women into stem? Yes we've all been a little bit suspicious that many male engineers might be on the spectrum, but that be the nature of the training and the job. However as in many professions when women become accepted the model becomes 'more rounded?'

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