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Guest post: "We need to ask why women aren't choosing engineering"

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MumsnetGuestPosts · 23/06/2015 11:22

I am no stranger to 'male-dominated industries'. After setting up my own manufacturing company, I never got used to feeling like the stranger in the saloon at trade shows filled with men, or to correcting people who asked me where the boss was. And from there I moved into politics – another field where men have historically ruled the roost, although women are increasingly, and crucially, making their presence felt.

Today is National Women in Engineering Day. It is a fantastic opportunity to celebrate women in engineering, and to showcase the many achievements of women in this sector. But with women still so under-represented in engineering, I also see it as an important occasion to think about what we can do, as government, as business and as individuals, to help redress the balance in the sector.

The UK has the lowest proportion of female engineers in Europe - fewer than 10%. We need to ask why young women aren't choosing these fascinating careers and what the barriers are which prevent or discourage them.

This is not just an issue of diversity. According to the Pearson/CBI Education and Skills Survey 2014, 39% of firms looking for STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths) skills and knowledge already have difficulties recruiting staff, and over half expect to have problems in the next three years. Faced with this shortage, it would be ludicrous from a business perspective too, not to take advantage of the huge amount of talent amongst our women and girls. This is something that I, and the Secretary of State for Education and Minister for Women and Equalities, Nicky Morgan, are very passionate about supporting.

The first step is to encourage girls to keep studying STEM subjects at school and university. It's a huge shame that while as many girls as boys achieve the top grades in maths and science at GCSE, far fewer girls progress to A level. Only 19% of those who achieve an A* in GCSE physics, for example, continue to A level, compared with about half of boys. And this pattern continues at university, with women taking up only 14% of engineering places.

This is why the government is supporting the Your Life campaign, which aims to boost the number of young people taking A level physics and maths by 50% within three years, and to double the proportion of undergraduate engineering and technology degrees taken by women by 2030, including by connecting young people to key figures from industry who can help them on their way to careers in STEM. The campaign also asks business to take action to increase female participation in these sectors, for example by pledging to increase diversity on their apprenticeship schemes, or to initiate women's networks within their companies. Over 200 organisations have signed up to date.

Part of the issue is entrenched ideas of 'male' and 'female' careers, which we know have already formed when children are at primary school. Girls need to choose from the broadest range of careers, and not feel they will be funnelled by society's conventions into particular roles. Young women tell us they value their parents' support when making choices about education and careers, but we know that parents do not always feel equipped to help them navigate these crucial decisions. For this reason we recently published a guide for parents, Your Daughter's Future, to provide information on the range of choices girls face in thinking about their future careers, and to support parents to challenge gender expectations.

It's also important that young women have strong role models to attract them into the sector. People like Roma Agrawal, one of the inspiring structural engineers who worked on the Shard and Barb Samardzich, the Chief Operating Officer for Ford of Europe. The government also funds STEMNET's STEM Ambassadors programme, which sends over 30,000 volunteers working in science, engineering and technology into schools across the UK to inspire young people – and it's fantastic that 40% of them are women.

These programmes, as well as the excellent work being done by all the organisations involved in National Women in Engineering Day, will ensure that more girls have the knowledge, skills and confidence to fulfil their potential in the engineering sector. Initiatives like these are crucial to make sure that girls are able to benefit from the many and varied opportunities the engineering sector offers, and that the engineering sector can benefit from the widest possible talent base. The UK needs to recruit 83,000 new engineers every year over the next decade in order to remain competitive – this is talent we can't afford to ignore.

OP posts:
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RaisingSteam · 23/06/2015 23:44

I'm tempted to defend my profession but there are some good points made the industry should listen.

  • a lot of engineering companies are still inflexible and have sexist attitudes. Many girls want to see a guaranteed career progression and flexible working beyond maternity leave.
  • some engineers indeed leave a lot to be desired as colleagues
  • Pay and status of the profession is average at best
  • Massive unconscious bias and lack of female role models - it's very hard for girls to picture themselves in the industry, which is not always public facing and a bit "invisible"
  • lack of proper careers guidance at 16 and 18
  • gender stereotyping leading to girls having low confidence in their abilities in maths/science/computing etc.


I don't think engineering is any worse than teaching, healthcare or social work for stress and pay, but girls drift into these fields in their thousands.

The thing is that other countries manage to overcome nearly all of these. So it's not intrinsically a problem. Women have made huge inroads into law, finance, medicine, in the last generation. We need to keep pushing, not being defeatist. The scene is definitely changing, if a bit sporadic, but there is such competition for jobs that the "caveman" companies are just not going to keep people soon.

I'm lucky, I work for a large engineering consultancy that has a good track record with women employees. It's not perfect but I like my job. And I built that, by the way.
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RaisingSteam · 23/06/2015 23:46

By competition for jobs I mean the recruiters are competing. We are trying to fill five vacancies in our team of thirty at the moment.

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SunnyBaudelaire · 24/06/2015 01:18

well in dds school of 1500, two girls, one in year ten and one in year eleven chose the NVQ in Engineering, I was v proud that one of them was my DD.
But she did have to be tough, from the first day when the teacher said 'cmon lads if this little girl can do it so can you' to having to listen to porny sex talk.
I am v proud of her, she made a toolbox.

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fuctifino · 24/06/2015 06:37

I joined a college course in 1986 that was aimed at specifically girls, Robotics & Control Engineering. To aid the uptake, all those enrolled were paid a YTS wage, so £27.50/week, rising to £35 in the second year. Still, only 6 girls signed up and in order for the course to run, boys who were enrolling on another engineering course were asked if they wanted to swap. They weren't told it was funded until they joined us, but they were paid like us.
So, we ended up as a class of 10.

Only 3 of us pursued careers in engineering, myself being the only girl. 2 other girls did do HND's but didn't get jobs in an engineering field.

After 10 years in Electronics, I moved into IT. I self taught myself a more obscure, at the time, operating system and had no trouble securing a job. In 1998 I was the only female in the group and when I left in 2006, I was still the only female. We did have female graduate trainee's pass through on rotation but none decided to take up our specialism.

Now I am back in STEM at high school level but at an all boys school, so can't comment on the enthusiasm of girls. But, I do have 2 dd's and would certainly encourage them to take that route if that's what they wanted to do.

I don't know how engineering can throw off it's reputation of being boring. When I was at uni, the joke was you could always tell the electrical engineers in the pub as they were the ones sat down having a boring conversation Confused.

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Itsthiwooluff · 24/06/2015 06:47

Absolutely agree with the poster up thread who said that it is the status of engineers in this country which is part of the problem. The title has been very widely applied, from someone who can design and build the most sophisticated piece of medical imaging kit, to someone who can service a washing machine. I suspect that because most people see the latter more regularly, that is what they think of as an engineer.


There is still a feeling that the this country prefers making money to making things. Didn't we allow our manufacturing industry to be decimated because the great god Financial Services was going to save us?

That went well. Hmm

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wonkylegs · 24/06/2015 08:23

I have just volunteered to go into DSs school for their STEM week. I'm not an engineer, I'm an architect (a profession that only does marginally better at attracting women). I know a disproportionate number of female engineers but that's because I know them through Women in Construction forums. I also work in an engineering heavy specialism within architecture.
I find it sad that girls in my DSs KS1 class already see jobs as girls jobs and boys jobs... With construction firmly in the boys job camp. I like to go into schools (I've been doing it for a few years now) as I think it rounds children's perceptions of what these jobs are and the abilities you need to do them. From talking to some of the mums though I think the education needs to extend to them (oooo I couldn't do a job like that)
I went to a CTC with a strong engineering bent for my a-levels which was fab but the year groups were very boy heavy. We were encouraged to go on WISE taster courses at university and given positive reinforcement (both boys and girls) and experience of the industry (close links with telecoms and aeronautical industries) and from that year group we nearly all went into STEM careers. I think that positive reinforcement of the professions needs to start young and show children the large breadth of career choices within.
Architecture found that retention is the main problem in the profession as so many leave so problems with flexibility, work culture and wages are still real issues.

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NorahDentressangle · 24/06/2015 08:35

Isn't there also still a snobbishness in the UK, you want your DD to be working in a smart suit in the city, not in safety gear and hard hat (or that is how it's imagined).

My DH is an engineer, I worked in the NHS (not a doctor) - his salary from the start was prob 4 times mine and latterly 8 times . I made sure my DDs headed for something better paid.
I know people say follow your heart but money is important too, and often at 17/18 you have no idea where your heart really is. The desire to 'help' people eg nursing, teaching, social work is strong. Helping people by building or developing things to improve their lives is not marketed well.

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morage · 24/06/2015 08:45

As a teenager I was going to do a degree in engineering. I even attended a course aimed at schoolgirls about getting into engineering. I still think I would have enjoyed the engineering, but what put me off was that it is such a male dominated industry, and at the time, very sexist. I wasn't confident enough to survive that kind of environment.
If there were women dominated engineering degrees, that would have made a real difference. Easier to be confident about dealing with sexism, than at 18.
Or even a woman only engineering degree. I would have applied for that in a heartbeat.

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Engineerwhy · 24/06/2015 09:59

My class at university ( a subset of a civil degree) was majority women. Quite a few of my lecturers were women and recognised figures in their fiels.
There are specialisms (materials I believe is one, Environmental engineering, acoustic and lighting design) which attract a large amount of women. I believe it is due to the fact that it is seen as "softer" engineering than traditional engineering like infrastructure engineering and geotechnics.
Sadly, noone seems to have heard of those specialisms and realise that they exist at all.

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Lancelottie · 24/06/2015 10:03

Morage -- maybe we need Tim Hunt to set up a women-only degree course...

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Owllady · 24/06/2015 10:32

I don't get the impression there is sexism in my husband's engineering firm Confused
He's also able to empathetic and hold interesting conversations :o

Lol at some of this thread!

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Bricks4Kidz · 24/06/2015 10:41

This is such an interesting read! We at Bricks 4 Kidz specialise in running programmes built on STEM principles for children aged 5-11 yrs....all learning, building and playing with lego® bricks. An American founded company, I have just set up a Franchise in the Kent area and we are doing brilliantly. We run after school clubs, holiday camps, pre school classes as well as birthday parties. Our founder is an ex-engineer and she comes up with the bespoke model plans which the children build.

Unfortunately, we are quite boy heavy. Especially in some of the after school clubs however I hope to change that! My 7 year old daughter attends Bricks 4 Kidz and she loves it. It's brilliant to see as she has never really shown an interest in lego or building before and now she's so enthusiastic!

Our tag line - they think it's cool, you know it's educational.

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abitwrong123 · 24/06/2015 11:29

Most engineers I know are "cold and dead inside" - some have startlingly low empathy to go along with their high systemising. Who wants to work with these blokes? And for so little money?
and when you want to do "women's things" like have babies, the worm turns, and suddenly you realise you're not on the same track at all, if indeed you ever were.

Friends of mine who are hitched to engineers are aften astounded at how callous and indifferent to emotions of those around them they seem, and how disconnected they are to their children. Imvho they all appear to be on the aspie spectrum.


What a lot of offensive generalised shite.

I own and run an engineering firm, I have been an engineer since leaving school and carrying out an apprenticeship, I later did my degree whilst working full time and with a small child as a single parent.
I have never been "disconnected" to my children and as for "cold and dead"?? Really?? And I'm not understanding the reference to "Aspie" either, I found that an odd assumption to make (putting it politely).

I do encounter sexism regularly outside of my own firm, we carry out a huge amount of work on site, however, it is no more frequent than the every day casual sexism we see as women in general every day life and can be dealt with effectively and with no drama or fuss.

In my opinion as a long standing engineer and employer, we need to be doing more at early secondary stage to encourage both genders into engineering of all kinds. My daughters school runs a scheme where parents are asked to come in and talk about their roles, I do this regularly and have helped arrange work experience for those interested in learning more about engineering as a career. This could be expanded on.

And there appears to be misconceptions about the rates of pay also. As a consultant in my field, I charge around £65 per hour plus VAT, a contracted engineer in my field will charge anywhere between £45-55 per hour as a base rate.
That's not too bad as a wage. A starting salary in my field for a decent graduate would normally be between £23 - 25K.

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Engineerwhy · 24/06/2015 11:37

The issue is not usually the starting salary, which is not bad at all, especially outside London. From experience, an engineer with 10 years experience may be around 45k and someone at end of career may get up to 80k. Not bad but low compared to Medecine, Law, Finance, HR etc.

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RaisingSteam · 24/06/2015 11:46

Haha - I'm a geotechnical engineer. Give me a motorway any day! Really I was a quiet and unconfident teenager. You don't have to be exceptional or some sort of trailblazer to do it - just need to connect with the subject and be able to do the math. It's awful that girls are put off by the thought they might encounter discrimination to not even go near the work. That is NOT how things get changed. The bl**dy men are oblivious to the culture they've created. And that girls think they have to become like that to fit in.

Do we need to go back to the industry and say "You are the problem - perceived and sometimes in reality". Big projects and clients like Crossrail are modelling better practice and it will trickle down. If there are any comments like the teacher's one mentioned earlier they need to be called out on it, because there will be someone at a higher level trying to demonstrate their commitment to diversity.

Guest post: "We need to ask why women aren't choosing engineering"
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ErrolTheDragon · 24/06/2015 11:46

We're taking DD to a couple of open days this weekend (she's only just done GCSEs, this is a preliminary mission!) . Among the other info in the mail, Loughborough has sent some on their Female Engineers drop in session. Smile

She's actually quite anti any form of 'positive discrimination' but it's good that this uni is making an effort to be welcoming to girls and make sure there's 'people like us' available to talk to.

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NorahDentressangle · 24/06/2015 11:51

My DH has been an engineer for years.

In the end if you make it to a senior role it's not being able to fiddle with quirky things and making it work it's being able to build a team, empower and promote the right people, get the project finished on time, deal and liaise with contractors etc

Same as in many fields.

If you are cold and dead inside !!! you ain't going to make it in any field I shouldn't think.

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CMOTDibbler · 24/06/2015 12:27

I think 'cold and dead inside' is massively, massively offensive. I get to work closely with electrical, mechanical, firmware, software, human factors, and nuclear engineers and they are just as varied and lovely (mostly!) a bunch as you'd find in any group of people. Some are more introvert, some more extrovert, but I'd never describe any of them as cold.

I think stereotyping of physicists and engineers is rife, and allowing them to go unchallenged is something that is a big influence on young peoples choices as they see them as 'people not like me'.

Maybe some pictures of my Finnish engineers at their christmas party would change their mind!

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 12:31

As a Finn, I know what you mean about the Otaniemi engineer parties.. But it's still geeky, "honestly, aren't we outrageous?!" forced fun says the humanist Grin

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 12:45

I have a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. I work as a software engineer. It's interesting how many posters here don't regard IT as engineering. (And software development Is not IT either). As far as I'm concerned, software related industries and IT are still based on STEM skills. So is a lot of finance which is heavily reliant on maths.

Encouraging girls taking STEM in a levels and universities will open doors to beyond traditional engineering.

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CMOTDibbler · 24/06/2015 12:49

Our lot are mostly genuinely pretty genuinely into it tbf. We've never allowed a Baltic cruise though, due to the danger of losing engineers Smile
Our first discussion of a party involved the never to be forgotten line about 'yes, and you'd love the hot tub but only with the lady engineers of course' while I processed the concept of getting nude with the development team.

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 12:55

Baltic cruises.. yes, those are a bit like extreme 18-30 clubs confined to a small space with open sea around it to silently drown in if you were a Finn, you might just get naked and drunk in hot tubs and saunas with both men and women, and it would be ok.

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CMOTDibbler · 24/06/2015 12:57

And I forgot to say, on the subject of engineering not being creative. We start product development (medical devices) with a use case which describes the users problem and a thing they want to do to solve this problem. We then do a lot of work together to work out what technical solutions there might be, rapid prototype them, discuss argue at length about the possibilities and their merits, and then do Agile development. All through this, the engineers will be thinking creatively, looking for alternative paths and so on.

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ToysRLuv · 24/06/2015 13:04

Yes, but like I said, you still have to have the solid base of boring old maths and physics to be able to be creative in engineering, IYSWIM. My DM is an architect (well, a city planner now), who trained at a Technical University in continental Europe, so she had to learn the physics and maths of different materials and construction styles. Nobody wants a house designed by an Architect who is not sure whether the house will be able to still stand in 5 years, however "creative" the design..

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HeadDreamer · 24/06/2015 13:06

cmot that's exactly the same process for software. Down to the words like use case and agile. You said you are in medical devices, didn't you?

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