To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

[helloitsme]

I would be very grateful for a brief summary of the arguments for and against vaccination to help me decide what to do. I am extremely unsure what to do best for my 2 year old DD who has not yet received any vaccinations. I am of a mind to select only the essential ones, maybe which have a better track record, but I am not as well informed as I would like. I have done some reading, but I still think I could learn more, especially from the point of view of convincing DH and my relatives.
So, what are the main reasons not to vaccinate, and if you choose to vaccinate, which vaccines would seem the most important? Also, at what age would you give them?

[marvinthemartian]

which dodgy websites?

this is a thread asking for opinions and experience. I posted my experience. why is it propaganda, any more than any other poster who has stated their experience (vaccinating their children) was 'fine'?

which particular theories are you talking about (your posts is verging on incoherent)?

my only point about gcse biology is that it is hardly in-depth, and sadly has been subject to abuse over the years, and used as a vehicle to spread propaganda (not exactly earth-shattering news, since the school curriculum is used in the same way)

[marvinthemartian]

I'm all for evidence based science.

I am just asking that the evidence (that there are no contraindications) comes before the vaccines.

is that really too much to ask? (especially given my experience?)

[GnomeDePlume]

While it is possible to get immunity from diseases by catching them in the wild the problem with this approach is that you dont know when that will be. You might hope that your DC catches rubella at an age when it is both convenient and early enough but the fact that many other DCs are immunised makes this a far from certain proposition. I'm afraid that the law of sod will dictate that your DCs will get these diseases at the least convenient moment:

• just before or while on holiday
  
• while attempting to take important exams
  
• worst possible scenario - when finding themselves unexpectedly pregnant
  
  Why risk it?

[marvinthemartian]

I'll take my chances on inconveniencing the family holiday thanks.

as to the exams issue - I hope you strongly encourage your children to test for immunity to mumps before heading off to university then. large outbreaks of mumps at universities for the last god knows how many years. the 'one jab gives immunity for life' is looking like it will easily need a third dose...

and on the unexpected pregnancy? well, it is still up to that individual (who has a far better chance at giving informed consent than an infant) to check their immunity, rather than rely on babies to protect them. imo.

[GnomeDePlume]

Inconveniencing the family holiday may include a flight ban affecting the return journey

There are many important exams long before university.

The thing about unexpected pregnancies is that they are, well, unexpected. They can occur before the mother had even thought about checking her immunity.

Marvin - my comments werent aimed at you more a counter to the argument that wild immunity is automatically a viable option. It may work for some but for others it may prove to be an unmitigated disaster.

If people choose not to immunise then IMO they must inform anyone responsible for their DCs and also the DCs themselves as soon as they are in a position to make any sort of medical decision for themselves (around 13).

[bumbleymummy]

Children can get sick with ANYTHING at the least convenient time. It's just one of those things about being a parent.

[bumbleymummy]

If they catch CP while on holiday/just before they go they can't fly. Do you recommend that we all vaccinate against CP for that reason?

[runningforthebusinheels]

Yet, marvin, it is evidence based science leads the WHO, HPA and NHS and children's charities to decide that the vaccination schedules, in both the developed and developing countries, are effective and safe. It saves lives, it really is that simple.

The contra-indications to vaccines are the same as the contra-indications for any medical procedure - be it GA, penicillin, or paracetamol.

I'm afraid, Leonie and marvin, I cannot take the views of people who sneer at biology be it at gcse level seriously - it's the basics of science. It's not wrong because it's taught to 16yr olds ffs. You sneer at science - I despair for you.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Yes, Leonie, but you did sneer at science upthread didn't you? The science behind vaccination is surprisingly basic, easily explainable to 14-16 year olds. But not to people who believe what they read on 'whale' and the like, unfortunately.

[runningforthebusinheels]

No, I'm sorry Leonie, but gcse biology is not erroneous, it may be basic but it is not erroneous. They do not take you aside at Uni and say, 'you know that stuff we said about immunity and vaccination at gcse, it's not true - the human immune system works in a whole different way - really vaccines don't work/are damaging/delete as appropriate. But we just don't tell those puny 14yrolds.' Do they?

Scientific principles are scientific principles - they stand. Until proven otherwise (using only evidence based science of course - not wooooooo stuff) then it is revised. That's what 'science' does.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Wakefield [roll] [roll] [roll]

[CatherinaJTV]

sorry, I am about a page behind, but Marvin, if disease-acquired immunity works so well, why were there so many cases of congenital rubella pre-vaccine. After all, all girls had had the chance to get rubella "naturally"?

[bakingaddict]

There's some really wooly scientific thinking from people....people believing that the immune system cannot handle multiple vac's FGS what do you think happens on a daily basis. Your immune system is probably bombarded with hundreds of pathogens on a daily basis, it doesn't give up the ghost when it passes the magic 3 number so why do you think this happens with a triple vaccine?

[PeppyNephrine]

Doesn't this board get bored having the exact same argument over and over and over and over again?

OP, just vaccinate your child. Its a wonder of modern medicine that has saved millions of lives, a chance that plenty of women around the world would die to get for their children. End of story.

[CatherinaJTV]

PeppyNephrine - LOVE YOUR SCREEN NAME

agree with the sentiment of your post, too

[bumbleymummy]

You would think so Peppy, but obviously not

Btw, I don't think that comparing people living in developing countries with limited/no access to clean water and sanitation, poor nutrition and inadequate healthcare provision makes a good point or 'ends the story'.

Baking addict, vaccines actually bypass parts of our immune system so again, not a great comparison.

[marvinthemartian]

Catherina - I have said many times, I think it is up to the individual to check their own immunity to diseases, rather than rely on babies and infants to protect them.

I don't buy the 'might not have thought to check their immunity' either. No, currently, might not think to do so (as happens with so many other diseases too, where vaccine immunity wanes yet teens/adults don't go for boosters) - 20 odd years ago no one thought to vaccinate babies against rubella either. systems can change . and adults/teens/older children should be taking responsibility for their own health.

running- it is not so much the basic science I was laughing at, but the fact that the science taught at gcse has been shown (especially where vaccines and health science is concerned) to actually be wrong. and no more than propaganda. so to take that as gospel is worrying, tbh.

even back in my day, I recall being taught things at gcse science level which, once i started A level, were then dismissed with a 'oh yes, we did say that, but had to really, as it needed to be simple. that's not quite the whole story...' and then the proper reasoning would come out (or, at least, more of the proper reasoning...)

[Beachcombergirl]

What did the original poster do in the end?

[helloitsme]

Just saw your post Beachcombergirl. Well, I should say that this thread kind of ran away from me. There were some posts soon after I posted, and then a lull, during which I thought the thread was cold. I was very suprised to see it had run and run! And I have to say that I am touched by the effort that people are willing to put in to answering questions from other concerned parents.
Having said all that, I am still very confused about what to do. I have read the arguments on both sides, and find them both convincing. As yet I have not vaccinated, but I'm still considering some vaccinations. I have moved internationally during the course of this thread and now face a different set of doctors and diseases, and I just feel pretty unsure which way to go. I also think that because people feel so very very strongly about this topic, it's difficult to discuss sometimes and just be clear. So it makes it difficult sometimes to come out and say where you're at and what your dilemma is. However, I am still better informed after the thread than before, and much appreciate the effort of all who wrote on it....

[Beaaware]

I agree with LeonieDelt, go by your gut feelings. My friend's son was only 24 when he died of human bse they think it was linkd the the BCG vaccine which he had years before.

[Tabitha8]

Beaware
It looks like there were concerns over the polio vaccine that was being used in 2000. Although we are told there was no risk whatsoever....

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/vo001026/text/01026-03.htm

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/oct/20/qanda.bse