To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

[helloitsme]

I would be very grateful for a brief summary of the arguments for and against vaccination to help me decide what to do. I am extremely unsure what to do best for my 2 year old DD who has not yet received any vaccinations. I am of a mind to select only the essential ones, maybe which have a better track record, but I am not as well informed as I would like. I have done some reading, but I still think I could learn more, especially from the point of view of convincing DH and my relatives.
So, what are the main reasons not to vaccinate, and if you choose to vaccinate, which vaccines would seem the most important? Also, at what age would you give them?

[GThomasH]

Hello, would anyone be open to speaking to me about the issues of vaccinating children? Specifically i am looking for conversations on the following issues which may if you are open to it lead to some public work / media work on behalf of a charity organisation.

Were you anti va, had some kind of experience and became pro vax?
are you a parent of a child who contracted measles becuase you didnt' vaccinate?
have you experienced a lot of pressure from anti-vax groups (online and/or in their community, school mums etc), but ultimately made the decision to vaccinate you child / children
As a child were you not vaccinated but now you are post 18 and have decided to get vaccinations?
Have you or a family member contracted measles after going on holiday to a low or middle income country and then came back to the UK.
Responses massively welcome.

[bruffin]

maebybebe

this is the IOM review of vaccine effects and causality This looks at the reactions attributed to various vaccines, the mechanism behind it and also good information about the actual disease. Its free to read on line.


WHO Vaccine safety web sites meeting credibility and content good information practices criteria
and avoid any site that links to whale.

[maebybebe]

Hi, haven't been on here in a while. I am a way off from even trying for a child, but I have always been interested in these kinds of issues; where there is so much vigour on either side and as someone has said on the first page of this post 'that people all seem to quote one another, rather than actual primary sources' - it has got to a point with this issue where it is difficult to get to the nitty gritty of which is the "right" view, because discussions always come back to a kernel of an idea on either side: vaccines have prevented diseases, smallpox is gone because vaccines and soon polio will be gone too / It was sanitation that eradicated polio and vaccines are harmful etc. etc.

Also, as someone said in response to my wanting to read a certain book; and yes it is Tim O'Shea, the quotes seem far from impartial! And I had found this book looking for impartial views! Therefore I want to undertake a research project. I want to look into it from a layman's, a concerned might-be-mother, I want to look at the actual beginnings of the whole thing and come to a rational conclusion for myself.

Who knows, maybe this resource will be of interest to others, but it will be something I have to do to satisfy myself in this minefield of staunch supporters of ingrained viewpoints.

Thank you.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

"With luck, in a few years no-one will ever get polio again." I don't think people know enough about the story of polio vaccination in developing countries.

[Abra1d]

'I grew up knowing two gents who must have been among the last generation to contract polio in the UK. Every single step was a struggle - and they were the lucky ones in that they survived and could breathe unaided.'

My father is like this. He 'recovered' from polio in that it only left him with one leg that couldn't bend at the knee. He was in hospital for a year, missed university and National Service and could play no sports except golf and swimming. Now he is in his eighties the pain from his ruined joints is awful and he is pretty well wheelchair-bound. It beats me why anyone would risk this for their child.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

Meh. I think it's pointless bordering on scare-mongering.

[Dragonboobs]

But still a reason, yes?

Because it makes for harrowing reading. That, I think, would make you want to make damn sure you protected your child against, any which way you could.

I did assume most people realise that sanitation and nutrition have improved.

I made it quite clear that it was up to any parent but that they should ensure they have all the info to make the decision.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

They're a much smaller reason than sanitation and nutrition. So why would reading about infectious disease in the Victorian age send you straight out to get a vaccine? Your post says vaccines were created with damn good reason. But deaths had declined hugely before vaccines were created. You sort of imply it's largely down to vaccination.

[Dragonboobs]

Of course I realise that. I wasn't going to rewrite the whole thing here. It'd be a rather long post if I talked about all the reasons why infant death has decreased so much. But vaccinations are one reason and this is a thread about vaccinations.

[Crumbledwalnuts]

Dragonboobs: seriously you did a dissertation on disease and death and don't realise how much impact sanitation, nutrition and antibiotics have had since the Victorian Age? Actually?

[Dragonboobs]

I wrote my dissertation on 'the causes of death in Victorian '

It was painful and heartbreaking to research and write. Because I hadn't anticipated how many under 5s there would be. I had to seperate my data for them; there were just so many.

You can read that if you like; I guarantee it'll have you booking a vaccination appt before you've finished it.

It's your decision. But make sure YOU research properly and thoroughly. Vaccinations were created and exist with damn good reason.

Fwiw my DS had his mmr today. It's how I stumbled upon this thread.

[curlew]

Do you mean Tim O'Shea? If you do, this is a quotation from him-

"Dr O'Shea teaches that vaccines are based on "junk science", and said in a radio interview last year that vaccine-preventable diseases should be treated by "naturally boosting the immune system".

"You do that by diet, by lifestyle, by chiropractic adjustments, by keeping the spine in line, by natural methods ? not by giving these fictitious, imaginary, man-made altered pathogens and pretending like they trigger an immunity,"

[maebybebe]

Hi, well I've been thinking about this for some time and now I've decided to have children I have started to delve into in depth research, my first step is to read the book Vaccination is not Immunisation by Tina O'Shea, as that is one book I understand gives an overview of the pros and cons and gives sources for all the information. Of course I will read books with the view that we should vaccinate, and indeed a lot of parents who have read this book come out with the decision they will vaccinate against some things and not others. So I think that could be my outcome. Has anyone read this book at all? I also need to re-read a proper textbook on immunology, which I did do a few years back out of interest, but have forgotten most of it.

[specialsubject]

I grew up knowing two gents who must have been among the last generation to contract polio in the UK. Every single step was a struggle - and they were the lucky ones in that they survived and could breathe unaided.

OP - your kids may be in luck and polio will finally be eradicated before they have the chance to leave the UK. If not, please make sure they they know that they are not immune.

I don't have the answers, but I do know that no-one will get smallpox ever again. With luck, in a few years no-one will ever get polio again.

[Tabitha8]

Now there's an accusation. I'm not anti-vaccine, but believe what you will.

[JoTheHot]

Probably because, habitually, you seek to discourage vaccination by misrepresenting vaccine science. You can only cry wolf so many times before people start to anticipate it. Just a guess.

[Tabitha8]

Oh dear, Elaine I'm beginning to think that you are just looking for an argument. My point was directed at Beaware and wasn't being used as an argument against a polio vaccine. Why did you take it as such?

[ElaineBenes]

So you refuse a polio vaccine based on a precautionary withdrawal of some batches of vaccines over 10 years ago even though the chances of ever developing cjd from vaccines is incalculably small anyhow.

On the other hand, the risk of polio is real since there is very little herd immunity from the inactivated polio vaccine which is now given - so if polio is imported and you're not vaccinated, you could get it as you won't have the same benefit of herd immunity as other diseases.

Perfect demonstration of the logic of many people who don't vaccinate.

[Tabitha8]

Beaware
It looks like there were concerns over the polio vaccine that was being used in 2000. Although we are told there was no risk whatsoever....

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199900/ldhansrd/vo001026/text/01026-03.htm

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/oct/20/qanda.bse

[Beaaware]

I agree with LeonieDelt, go by your gut feelings. My friend's son was only 24 when he died of human bse they think it was linkd the the BCG vaccine which he had years before.

[helloitsme]

Just saw your post Beachcombergirl. Well, I should say that this thread kind of ran away from me. There were some posts soon after I posted, and then a lull, during which I thought the thread was cold. I was very suprised to see it had run and run! And I have to say that I am touched by the effort that people are willing to put in to answering questions from other concerned parents.
Having said all that, I am still very confused about what to do. I have read the arguments on both sides, and find them both convincing. As yet I have not vaccinated, but I'm still considering some vaccinations. I have moved internationally during the course of this thread and now face a different set of doctors and diseases, and I just feel pretty unsure which way to go. I also think that because people feel so very very strongly about this topic, it's difficult to discuss sometimes and just be clear. So it makes it difficult sometimes to come out and say where you're at and what your dilemma is. However, I am still better informed after the thread than before, and much appreciate the effort of all who wrote on it....

[Beachcombergirl]

What did the original poster do in the end?

[marvinthemartian]

Catherina - I have said many times, I think it is up to the individual to check their own immunity to diseases, rather than rely on babies and infants to protect them.

I don't buy the 'might not have thought to check their immunity' either. No, currently, might not think to do so (as happens with so many other diseases too, where vaccine immunity wanes yet teens/adults don't go for boosters) - 20 odd years ago no one thought to vaccinate babies against rubella either. systems can change . and adults/teens/older children should be taking responsibility for their own health.

running- it is not so much the basic science I was laughing at, but the fact that the science taught at gcse has been shown (especially where vaccines and health science is concerned) to actually be wrong. and no more than propaganda. so to take that as gospel is worrying, tbh.

even back in my day, I recall being taught things at gcse science level which, once i started A level, were then dismissed with a 'oh yes, we did say that, but had to really, as it needed to be simple. that's not quite the whole story...' and then the proper reasoning would come out (or, at least, more of the proper reasoning...)

[bumbleymummy]

You would think so Peppy, but obviously not

Btw, I don't think that comparing people living in developing countries with limited/no access to clean water and sanitation, poor nutrition and inadequate healthcare provision makes a good point or 'ends the story'.

Baking addict, vaccines actually bypass parts of our immune system so again, not a great comparison.

[CatherinaJTV]

PeppyNephrine - LOVE YOUR SCREEN NAME

agree with the sentiment of your post, too