Toilet doors removed - secondary school

[sparkie1972]

I've just received a letter from my daughters school, to say that they have removed the outside doors to the girls and boys toilets, to resolve the issue of students congregating in there during lesson times. The main cubical doors will remain in tact, but the move would allow staff to look check quickly if learners are standing by the sink area. I'm concerned about the privacy and dignity of the girls being eroded. Any ideas on how to approach this with the school?

[Jonei]

Not fine in the minds of many girls who no longer feel able to use those toilets though, is it. Sad that this is the only solution school think they can come up with really. It says a lot about those schools / the culture within them.

[Brefugee]

when my DC were at school they didn't drink and did everything they could to avoid going to the toilets because of boys busting in and peering over the doors etc.

Taking off the main door would have made zero difference because then they would have worried about people being able to hear/smell what was going on.

[surreygirl1987]

Yes it does happen in all schools I agree. Does your outstanding private school also advocate removing the toilet doors and eroding the dignity of girls? Doesn't sound outstanding to me if so, it sounds lazy. Like the adults have lost control. I wouldnt be paying for such an outstandingservice that's for sure.

We haven't done so yet, but toilets are definitely the major issue in the school currently - and yes, currently there is no control over what goes on in the toilets as they're the one place in the school staff don't really go into- or very rarely. Both male and female pupils have raised the issues with the toilets as the only place in the school they don't all feel fully comfortable going into, so it will be addressed- somehow. Staff toilets are already single cubicles that lead straight out into the corridor and I don't feel any lack of dignity whatsoever - there's a door!!

[Jonei]

Yes, and there's also plenty of girls that don't feel comfortable with that, but it seems their feelings /voices are ignored. There's plenty of girls who have stopped using the toilet, putting their own health at risk, but again, just ignored by the adults who are supposed to be caring for them within schools.

The minimising of this problem in order to create an lazy quick fix solution is concerning. It's been brewing for some years now and in some ways just the tip of the iceberg of problems / culture surrounding many of the adults working in schools and their lackadaisical / ill thought out approach to dignity and safeguards for girls.

[Brefugee]

 Staff toilets are already single cubicles that lead straight out into the corridor and I don't feel any lack of dignity whatsoever - there's a door!!

these toilets aren't like that - they are regular cubicles, with open top and bottom and flimsy doors. Tell me you'd use one of those the day after a huge curry and a couple of beers?

[surreygirl1987]

Yes, and there's also plenty of girls that don't feel comfortable with that, but it seems their feelings /voices are ignored.

I don't know how it works in other schools, but in mine things like this would go through school council, and the Head Boy and Head Girl would be a big part of it, and there are always many opportunities for voices to be heard. We always do pupil surveys too to gather viewpoints.

Pupil safety is our priority of course, so if no doors was deemed the safest option for pupils, we'd be doing pupils a disservice by not ensuring the best chance of their safety.

[surreygirl1987]

these toilets aren't like that - they are regular cubicles, with open top and bottom and flimsy doors. Tell me you'd use one of those the day after a huge curry and a couple of beers?

I don't drink beer and our pupils shouldn't be either 🙈😂

But then... why on earth can't pupil toilets simply have floor to ceiling doors on their individual cubicles if you're worried about the after effects of 'curry and beer' or the like? I was in a softplay today and the toilets were a no-door unisex space with individual cubicles (floor to ceiling doors) and it was brilliant. Some of our pupils toilets around the school are like that actually already, now I think about it.

[Brefugee]

well quite - but these aren't doing that are they (budget?) they are just removing the doors and that is uncomfortable for girls. Boys too possibly
but why pay attention to the comfort of girls, eh?

[Jonei]

@surreygirl1987

these toilets aren't like that - they are regular cubicles, with open top and bottom and flimsy doors. Tell me you'd use one of those the day after a huge curry and a couple of beers?

I don't drink beer and our pupils shouldn't be either 🙈😂

But then... why on earth can't pupil toilets simply have floor to ceiling doors on their individual cubicles if you're worried about the after effects of 'curry and beer' or the like? I was in a softplay today and the toilets were a no-door unisex space with individual cubicles (floor to ceiling doors) and it was brilliant. Some of our pupils toilets around the school are like that actually already, now I think about it.

Because floor to ceiling is not safe, particularly in a school setting. As no doubt will have been explained on this thread.

[Littlecamellia]

Snarky comments about hand washing ignore the fact that girls can be bullied for washing blood off their hands at the sinks. If I had a daughter at school now, I'd supply her with wipes to use in the cubicle.

Girls will be washing their hands at the sinks whether there is an outside door or not.

[BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn]

toilets are definitely the major issue in the school currently - and yes, currently there is no control over what goes on in the toilets as they're the one place in the school staff don't really go into- or very rarely.

If there are known problems, why don't the staff go in regularly?

[Jonei]

The cheapest option that fails to consider all aspects of safeguarding. It's clear it's a quick cheap fix, with many safeguarding issues deliberately ignored to justify that.

[SlicerAndEcho]

I teach in France, the toilets for our kids open straight onto the playground. The kids still congregate around the sinks, especially if it’s raining. In our case the dignity issue is arguably worse for the boys, the urinals and the boys using them are clearly visible to anyone walking past…

They just vape in the cubicles. But it’s France, so year 11 and up actually have a smoking area on the school premises.

In theory the students aren’t meant to use them during lesson times, and we used to be fairly flexible about that. Then last year 2 girls arranged to meet up saying they had « girl problems » and filmed a sex tape which they then posted online. So, that meant a clamp down for everyone. (I put girl problems in « » as I’m quoting them).

It’s far from ideal.

[Brefugee]

so what is best practice as far as school toilets go?
If cubicles in a room with a door to enter the room where the cubicles are is dangerous (bullying, kids dodging lessons, smoking)
so the answer is to take the main door off, but that is uncomfortable and difficult too

floor to ceiling self contained cubicles are also problematic.

Is there any answer to school toilets?

[Tinysoxx]

@thatsn0tmyname

Our school has floor to ceiling cubicles, separate sex, with basins that are visible from the corridor. Any teacher can stand in the corridor and police the loos without entering or eroding dignity. We have a vape and self harm issue in our school and this helps us with safeguarding.

How does it help with safeguarding as the floor-ceiling doors give them the space to do this privately and take as long as they want?

[Tinysoxx]

From my experience as a teacher and a parent I know it will only be a matter of time before there are pupils seriously ill or worse behind full ceiling to floor footed toilet cubicles. Some may have been saved if there was visiblity and people could see that they had collapsed behind them.
It is a stupid policy to have full floor to ceiling doors.

I hope any governor, teacher or school building planner reading this will take the following on board:

The below is taken from this and I have added some personal bits:

www.wcportables.co.uk/blog/why-public-toilet-doors-do-not-reach-the-floor/

Some reasons why public toilet doors do not reach the floor

1. Ideal in cases of emergency: The gap could help other users notice someone who has collapsed or fainted in an enclosed stall. In these circumstances, a toilet user or a member of an emergency team can squeeze through the gaps to provide help to the affected individual. It could be the difference in a life-threatening situation.
   
   My friends and I saw an arm sticking out the door gap in a nightclub. My friend shimmied over the top. There was a girl in there grey coloured, covered in vomit and unconscious. We moved her so the door could open (inwards) and called an ambulance. It happened so quickly and never thought about it until my own child went to university. 
   
   There are hundreds of thousands of epileptics in this country whose seizures aren’t controlled by medication. Sometimes people feel ill before a seizure, sometimes not and wouldn’t have the time or ability to pull a cord.
   
   Same with heart attacks/ strokes/ head injuries/ fainting and hitting head.
   
   
2. The overall cost is cheaper. Designing and constructing a door that extends to the floor might cost more. This could be due to the complexity of the design, material and labour hours. This may explain why some management teams opt for toilet doors that have a considerable gap from the floor.
   
   Also means the doors don’t get jammed as they warp with the wet.
   
   
   
3. It makes cleaning easier: Cleaners can easily extend the floor mops into the stalls without having to open the doors. They can also evaluate the state of the toilet via the gap between the floor and door. It saves cleaning time and encourages frequent or a short interval cleaning routine.
   
   They can get to all crevices, particularly with all sorts of fluids not encrusting the door.
   
   
4. Faster escape of bad odour: Toilet is a natural environment for the release of bad odour. The gap between the door and the floor provides a quick escape of the foul smell that was generated by previous users.
   It helps your toilet experience to become bearable. Without the gap, the odour is sustained in a stall and becomes unbearable to subsequent users
   
   
   
5. Easy to determine availability: The uniqueness of modern-day toilet locks can make it quite hard to tell if a stall is empty. As some toilets use a green indication for a vacant facility and red for those occupied. Nothing beats the eyes test of glancing through the gap for any sign of occupancy.
   
   As an ex-teacher I used to do sweeps of the toilet blocks. If a cubicle was locked, I gave a
   shout then looked under the gap. What would I have done in a real fire/bomb emergency with a locked full-length door? I don’t know
   
   
6. Ensures the toilet queue flows: Toilets with doors of this nature could negatively impact people’s privacy. When individuals sense others can listen to their business that easily, they are prone to wrap up quickly.
   
   
7. Reduced bad toilet habits or behaviours: As we have earlier indicated, raised toilet doors can limit the privacy of users. With this in mind, people will refrain from exhibiting poor behaviour. The embarrassment of being spotted acting inappropriately will ensure people err on the side of caution.
   
   It was documented and discussed that there one as least one rape per school day in U.K. schools reported (Parliament and BBC article). As a teacher I am shocked but wondered where these can happen. Obviously anywhere that decreases visibility increases the chance of bad things happening - particularly if it’s mixed sexed toilets so each sex has a reason to be there. Also drug taking. And self-harm.
   
   
   There are very, very good safety and hygiene reasons for toilets being designed as they are.
   
   The safest are single sex toilets with doors with gaps top and bottom.
   
   
   Link for rapes in schools evidence:
   www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34138287

[Timshortforthalia]

@Jonei

Oh the soultion.

Ok.

I'll make a start. And wait for the, oh no, we can't possibly do that, people.

Or maybe those people could try and add some reasonable suggestions to it which don't include removing the doors from the girls toilets.

I'd utilise the cameras in the corridors to ensure that this huge gangs of children that are allegedly beating eachother up and vaping in the toilets are actually in their classrooms. It's surprising that these gangs of children roaming the corridors just don't get spotted. There's short time frames when children are moving around. And really not that many toilet areas in schools. In my DC's school there's 3 clusters.

I would get someone to check on the toilets periodically at busy times. And to check they are clear once the main bustle of children has dispersed to wherever they are going.

At break times, just like the old days, have people monitoring the doors to check whose coming in, how long they are spending in there, not too many people in at any one time.

Zero tolerance to vaping. Any child caught with those things gets immediately expelled. Just like the old days when students got expelled for smoking. Zero tolerance to any anti social behaviour tbh.

Anyone like to add some additional ideas to that?

Or is it going to be a case of no, we can't possibly do that...

OMG. GENIUS

I wonder why schools don’t do this already?

Oh right, they do.

[surreygirl1987]

If there are known problems, why don't the staff go in regularly?

Into the kids' toilets? For me it's dear of accusations. Not the girls, but the boys' toilets. It isn't appropriate for me to be seeing boy peeing in urinals, funnily enough. I once accidentally walked in on a boy using the sports hall toilet before an exam (he hadn't locked the door) and I was mortified and repirted the incident to safeguarding. And no male member if staff would feel comfortable going into girls' toilets apart from in emergency situations, for obvious reasons. And, before someone says it, in order to supervise toilets by someone of the same sex this would require DOUBLING the number of duties... we already do too much and give up our lunchtimes as it is.

[OldChinaJug]

@Jonei

Oh the soultion.

Ok.

I'll make a start. And wait for the, oh no, we can't possibly do that, people.

Or maybe those people could try and add some reasonable suggestions to it which don't include removing the doors from the girls toilets.

I'd utilise the cameras in the corridors to ensure that this huge gangs of children that are allegedly beating eachother up and vaping in the toilets are actually in their classrooms. It's surprising that these gangs of children roaming the corridors just don't get spotted. There's short time frames when children are moving around. And really not that many toilet areas in schools. In my DC's school there's 3 clusters.

I would get someone to check on the toilets periodically at busy times. And to check they are clear once the main bustle of children has dispersed to wherever they are going.

At break times, just like the old days, have people monitoring the doors to check whose coming in, how long they are spending in there, not too many people in at any one time.

Zero tolerance to vaping. Any child caught with those things gets immediately expelled. Just like the old days when students got expelled for smoking. Zero tolerance to any anti social behaviour tbh.

Anyone like to add some additional ideas to that?

Or is it going to be a case of no, we can't possibly do that...

I'm in primary and we have similar issues to secondary.

We have put in a rota for staff monitoring toilets but that's an awful lot of hours spent patrolling toilets. Our lunch times are 45 minutes. I tend not to eat at school.and use that time to mark or prepare got the afternoons lessons (get resources set out, mark etc) or supervise children completing work etc but now I give up a day a week of this to supervise toilets that the children shouldn't be accessing during breaktimes at all anyway but still sneak in to do so.

I'm sure some think that's fine but in what other job does any one have to give up one lunch time a week to stand outside toilets? I accept/don't mind giving it up to do work.

There aren't enough staff members for toilets to be policed during lessons (because we're teaching and we don't have TAs).

We currently have a policy of only allowing children to leave for the loo at set points to avoid children from different classes congregating there. Two children aren't allowed to go to the loo during lessons at all because of their behaviour towards others (intimidation and violence). I can only imagine how much more difficult this is to manage at secondary.

[Jonei]

Interesting, when there's a move towards mixed sex toilet facilities that it's appropriate for girls to be in the same toilet facilities as boys, but not the teachers.

A good reason for single sex space. And of course male teachers can oversee male toilets and female teachers can oversee female toilets.

It's hardly doubling duties. If doing that as children are moving around is doubling duties then the duties currently being performed must be tiny.

No one is asking the teachers to go into the cubicles with the children. Just put their head round the door and make sure everything is ok. It's a breach of safeguarding to not do that.

Honestly, the knots school staff tie themselves into to justify poor safeguarding practice, such as mixed sex facilities and taking the bloody toilet doors off.

Such bullshit.

[Jonei]

We have put in a rota for staff monitoring toilets but that's an awful lot of hours spent patrolling toilets

3 clusters of toilets at DC's secondary school. A head round the door from the nearest classroom once children have moved and settled to the next class? Hardly a vast amount of additional hours. Standard practice at the school I went to.

Plus the added bonus of cameras in all the corridors?

All this tech yet schools are getting worse not better.

They've really lost their way in the common sense stakes haven't they.

[BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn]

toilets that the children shouldn't be accessing during breaktimes 

When are they meant to go, if not at break?

[Jonei]

When I was at secondary school the most responsible year 11s monitored the external doors near the toilets on a rota at breaktime, in return for extra privileges.

[OldChinaJug]

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn

toilets that the children shouldn't be accessing during breaktimes 

When are they meant to go, if not at break?

It's to do with where they are located. There are toilets easily accessible from the playground but the loos they can't use are in a different building that is much further away from the playground they're not supposed to be in at breaktimes because there's no guarantee a member of staff will be aware that's where they are or will even be in there.

Ergo, staff will be unaware if they've had an accident or that's where they are if the fire alarm goes off.

But some of the children choose to leave the playground without asking an adult and go to this building to use these toilets precisely because there is no adult supervision.

These toilets can be used during lessons, before going to assembly, between lessons etc.

[Jonei]

But some of the children choose to leave the playground without asking an adult and go to this building to use these toilets precisely because there is no adult supervision.

Why can't the door be locked to that part of the building at breaktime?