Has anyone been to a fasting clinic like Buchinger-Wilhelmi?

[Boobz]

www.buchinger-wilhelmi.com/

If so, what was it like, did you enjoy it and would you recommend it?

[BigChocFrenzy]

btw, do you have enemas every damn day ?
Can you ask if there is an enema-free version, or are enemas mandatory for a prolonged fast ?
(no way I'm celebtrating my 60th with a tube up my bum, even once)

[MorrisZapp]

Wow! This is fascinating! Can I ask two questions?

Firstly do you need to prepare at home, or do you turn up with doughnut crumbs still on your lips and go cold turkey?

Secondly why are you there for two weeks, is this your personal choice, or their recommendation?

[Boobz]

BigChoc they are about every other day, maybe a bit less. Honestly it really isn't that bad (or even bad at all - I really like the emptiness and cleanliness feeling it leaves). TBH I'm sure you could get away without them - they aren't booked in per se - you have to ring the bell to get them to do it, so you could just not ring the bell I suppose.

You ARE supposed to prepare (cut down on portion size, meat, caffeine, alcohol), but I didn't realise until I got there. So I hadn't.

The second question is a good one - the more I have researched whilst I am here, the more I think 10 days is optimum, in terms of physiological/health gains (for cancer, arthritis, thyroid problems, whatever you are trying to cure) with a follow up of 5:2 and perhaps another 4 or 5 day fast once a year. So I think 14 days is perhaps overboard, but I am always the type to choose the more hard-core option - it's in my nature (and I really wanted to shift a stone if I could).

[Boobz]

There is a really good article in the Sunday Times which is how I found the clinic, which goes into a bit more depth about the science of it all, and the routine.

Times article

[BigChocFrenzy]

Boobz I think you said the stay includes a 2-day prep at the start, plus 2 days at the end to transition into more normal intake. So that would leave 10 days "real fasting"

[Boobz]

Day 10: 53.7kg

On the menu today - blood test, doc's appointment, psychotherapy, work out (3 miles on treadmill), walk into town and a facial. Might see if I can do a sauna in there too somewhere.

Am ready to go home soom. It's been extremely restive but I miss my DH and kids and I am looking forward to going back to work!

Sipping my ginger tea now and looking out over Lake Constance - what an experience this has been.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Boobz Enjoy your me-time to the full. It sounds such a fantastic experience.
If they've been teaching mindfulness & meditation, maybe: "live in the minute"

[Boobz]

Day 11 (Breaking the fast): 53.5kg

Thank you BigChoc. I went to meditation for an hour this morning - it's so impossible. My mind is always running at a million miles an hour.

Half way down the 53s... little by little...

Today I was supposed to break the fast with breakfast but it was inedible to me, so I guess I will be breaking it with lunch! I am a very high protein/fat eater, and low carbs eater, so to be presented with prunes, porridge, apple and cinnamon was not great (I just don't like sweet breakfasts anyway). And it would have been almost all carbs, so I had some weird coffee with soy milk I think. Hopefully lunch is a bit better!

Today: 3D stretching, medicine ball training, psychotherapy (last one), afternoon walk and sauna. I had a facial yesterday and have a massage tomorrow so no treatments today.

Am really starting to miss home so am glad this is coming to its conclusion, but I will miss the introspection and lack of stress.

Lake Constance is beautiful today.

[Boobz]

Anybody still reading?

[Breadandwine]

I'm still tuning in for the latest - tks!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Me too. I'm fascinated. Do keep posting.

I know the fasting gurus are very much into the "Eat food, not much, mostly plants"
You've trusted the clinic this far. They'd know what works after a long fast and how to gently get your digestion used to increasing amounts of food.
I expect also that bacon & eggs could have nasty consequences for your tum.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Are you sure your normal v high protein diet is wise ? The research I've read, plus Mosely's various documentaries say protein increases IGF1 and that this is a risk factor for cancer - one of his aims in the original Horizon documentary was to reduce his IGF1, because he was concerned about cancer.

Do pick the brains of the clinic doctors wrt IGF1, risk factors, protein etc. and ask their recommendations for future WOE. I'd love to know what they think, v useful with all their experience.

I'm definitely no fan of the low fat / high carb renommendations, but I'm aiming now for the Low Carb Med regime outlined in Mosely's new Blood Sugar book that I bought last week (ok, I know I'll have an occasional junk days). It's based on Prof Taylor's work at Newcastle Uni at reversing T2.
Risk factors for T2 and cancer seem similar.
The longterm WOE is the same as the daily 800-cal, but just upped to normal cals IYSWIM

Low Carb Mediteranean (Taylor / Mosely)

Studies show it reduces risk of CVD and T2.
You eat: vegetables, oily fish, eggs, lentils, beans, nuts, olive oil.
Yoghurt, cheese, 1-2 portions low sugar fruit (no juice)
Occasional Small portions (side dish) of bulgur wheat, steelcut oats, oat bran.
Optionally red wine some evenings but within nhs limits.

[Boobz]

I spoke to the nutritionist at the Royal Marsden during my stay there and he was pretty happy that the amounts of protein I was eating was unlikely to have a huge effect on my propensity to develop cancer, but that certainly I could cut down on red meat and up some "healthy" carbs from organic vegetables. I am interested to read Mosely's book though - I shall seek it out online.

I'm liking the occasional wine idea too!

[BigChocFrenzy]

For my nosiness scientific curiousity, could you ask the clinic doctors too what they think about protein, IFG1 and cancer ?
Basically to pick their brains, to get their recommendations as the healthiest nutrition plan longterm.
I'd love to know if the clinic with their long fasting experience agree with Mattson, Longo, Mosely etc, who all seem to be saying reduce protein to what I would find a v low limit.

I love beef, used to mainline burgers, but I have cut it down a lot.
My problem is I must have all meat well done or it makes my tum queasy (that and total intolerance to butter, marge etc runs in my dad's family)
I know well done meat has the highest risk, but I can't even tolerate medium, so it is well done or nothing for me.

[MrFMercury]

Please keep posting, I'm finding it fascinating reading about your experiences.

[Boobz]

Day 12: 53.5kg

No loss, but then no gain either, what with breaking the fast.

Lunch yesterday was better - chicory salad followed by spinach and potatoes. I at most of that but left some of the potatoes.

Dinner was pumpkin soup which was nice followed by rice and vegetables with a sauce. I left some of the rice as it was a bit chewy.

Total calories for breaking fast day is supposed to be 800 but I think I had around 500.

This morning was more apple type porridge so I swapped it for a local thing they call Quark here (which I think is essentially cream cheese with grated carrot and oil) and 1.5 Ryvitas. I asked especially if I could have a freshly squeezed orange juice too so I could do my run with a bit of fructose! They said yes.

I then set off in -2'C and snow (it wasn't so bad at the beginning but it started to come down really heavily) and ran 18km in 1hr49. I'm annoyed I didn't get to 19km but I must have run a slightly different route the one I planned. Anyway - not dangerously fast, but given the conditions (and given I have hardly eaten for 2 weeks) I was pleased to get around! Good decision (despite the temp/snow) to run outside as I'm sure if I had attempted to do it on the treadmill I would have stepped off at around 12 or 13km - calves started to ache at that point.

So amazingly you can run almost a half marathon whilst fasting. I feel brilliant now - tired but endorphin filled - I shall enjoy my liver compress enforced rest today - and my massage later!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Amazing after nearly 2 weeks buffered fasting that you could run 18km in a decent time, in such horrid weather too.
So many people - and trainers - even scream that one shouldn't exercise before breakfast.

This thread has been particularly pleasing and useful for me, because you have given an example of how much exercise is possible with fasting.

From an evolutionary point of view, our ancestors probably had periods of a week or two when there was hardly any food and they had to have the strength to keep hunting or die.
It's good to be fed most of the time, but I think we also need other times when our bodies rely on their own fuel stores.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Quark is just fresh cheese or curd cheese. I have it a lot, v useful.
It's ubiquitous in Germany where I've lived off and on. I've had it plain, or mixed with herbs as aavoury, or sweet with blueberries or vanilla.
You may have had it as fromage frais in France

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sounds like in the transition back to normal food, they are giving you low to medium protein, low fat, medium to high carbs

[Boobz]

Thanks BigChoc - it's been fun writing a mini blog about it - especially seeing the number go down.

[Boobz]

Day 13 (Departure) 53.1kg
Total lost since arrival date: 5.7kg (12.5 lbs)

Happy with that!

Off to pack, do a walk and then catch a taxi to the airport.

[SeasonalVag]

Well done, op, I've been following! I did a juice fast years ago and it really helped my medical issues.

Presumably you're familiar with the work of gerson? Are you going to keep juicing? I hope you do, I strongly believe that your body needs extra nutrition after going through chemo, in fact I think its crucial.

[CoperCabana]

Fascinating thread. Thanks so much OP. Plenty of food for thought and very inspiring to someone like me who has just started my journey to (hopefully) fitness!

[trixymalixy]

Really interesting thread thank you for posting. I'd love to do this.

[Dafspunk]

Just found this - thanks Boobz, really interesting and lots of food for thought.

No pun intended.