5:2 Thread number 54: Do you think you are what you eat ? Do NOT hunt down a skinny person for lunch ...... instead learn WHEN to eat.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
  
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
  

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[lbnblbnb]

I am definitely not reading those threads! There is definitely a difference between shops, but I am not going to use that to beat myself up. People can be so judgemental!

I totally overdid it yesterday - splurged on breakfast, feasted at lunch and guts-ed at dinner. But I enjoyed it all and logged it all on MFP. Before I would have fallen off the wagon, stuck my head in the sand and given up. I have a FD planned today BUT my SIL is at MIL and that usually means an invite for a meal. If so, I will eat reasonably there and switch my FD to tomorrow.

My weekly average is still really pleasing on MFP, I guess that is what matters.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Stripy Don't let size-shaming do your head in.
Yes, sizes in some shops have changed considerably over the last 30 years; other shops not so much. Back in the 1960s & 1970s, women didn't have anything like the body image pressure of today, so sizes varied less.
It's noone else's business what size you wear, or what you weigh.

For health, the main aim is to get your waist within half your height, because that is an indicator of fat around the organs.
Also do regular exercise and try not to have too much processed crap or booze.
Clothes size ? Who cares.

lbnb Absolutely right, weight loss is a process over many weeks or months. A feast day or two balanced by fast days is probably how we naturally evolved, anyway.

That's a lifestyle NSV, learning that an occasional splurge day is to be enjoyed, not a sign to give up.

If you have a decent calorie deficit most weeks and don't eat / drink too much processed crap you'll lose weight at the rate that suits your body & lifestyle.

[Illhaveabpleasebob]

I hear you stripey- totally confused about sizing. I don't think height comes in to it though- surely dress size relates to frame size?? Under 5ft 4 people aren't be definition of slight build (or are they??)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Its not just frame size - don't forget proportions of breadth to height.
That's why I say aim for waist < half height, not a fixed number of inches.

A small frame for a woman of 5' and another of 6' would probably mean they have different widths of e.g. pelvis.

Also, muscle is important: e.g. My upper body is very muscular, so my shoulders, biceps and forearms means I would have to go up a size for jackets & blouses - then the waist is ridiculously baggy. So I just wear sports gear !

[ForEverythingAReason]

Size 10/12 at 5'4" sounds fine to me Stripey. Clothes sizes are no more accurate than BMI IMHO. Some shops do use bigger / smaller sizing but I wouldn't call a 10 / 12 "huge" no matter where they shopped. I'll be keeping well clear of those threads!

[fusspot66]

Hello Fellow 5:2ers. I returned from my week in Spain at 9am yesterday and enjoyed all the tastes of home like sliced wholemeal toast with butter and marmite, and gallons of proper tea. Had a sensible tea of stir fried veg, diced turkey and brown rice, drank a final holiday gin and tonic in front of the football, and here I am, starting a FD, unusually on a Sunday. It's my birthday on Tuesday, I'm out with the girls on Thursday, & gathering with college friends on Friday to go to a Gin Fest (I've been in training for that event this week.) I'll fast on Wednesday too. My week away was lovely. I did one 16:8 and can definitely confirm that I felt hungrier for lunch after a (carby) breakfast than without. I tended to avoid the bread basket at the table and ate more cheese, meat and salad than bread. My clothes felt tighter by the end of the holiday but today's weigh in was ok, with measurements and weight holding steady. My parents are considering giving 5:2 a try so I shared the links. I will be 50 next June so this is my 'Get a grip, girl' year.
It was nice to see the other new starters getting the hang of it and seeing results.

[Meerka]

mm week in spain, sounds lovely! sounds like you did pretty well if your weigh in was steady.

bigchoc only way to check if you are insulin resistant is by a test through the doc, right?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Meerka Tests would find T2 or pre-diabetes, but insulin resistance is some way before that, so I'm not sure at what degree it would register as abnormal.
Same as an underactive thyroid may not be diagnosed officially until a certain limit, even though it's affecting weight - I'd have thyroid checked too, btw if you decide on tests.

Typical signs of insulin resistance are: high blood pressure, carb cravings, lack of energy, fat stored around waist, not losing properly even when with a weekly calorie deficit.
Could also be due to other hormones being out of balance though.

If you just want to know whether you'd lose more and feel better on low carb 5:2, then ntbo just try it for at least 2 weeks - what I'd do.
You can be quite a long way from any clinical condition and still lose better & feel better.
Also, some people just do better on low carb anyway, even with perfect tests results; some people do better on low fat. Nearly all need a calorie deficit.

[RedandYellow24]

Question sorry have tried reading all info still confused!
My BMR is: 5580 kJ / 1334 calories
Your TDEE is: 6696 kJ / 1600 calories

I'm a wheelchair user electric so don't even burn calories pushing self around. What would you suggest I eat on a NFD? It says BMR is what you would do not moving in 24h but not sure I burn 24h just transferring the odd time either! Would you just go for a total in the middle?

[mrswhiskers]

red I'd imagine your TDEE would be worked out with your activity sedentary as although you are seated all day you will still be moving your body.


I've been reading a lot this week about eating low carb high fat and it makes a lot of sense to me. I've decided to give it a go over the next 2 weeks and see what happens.
I've fallen off the vegetarian wagon this weekend too after 6 months I had been craving chicken for a few weeks and finally gave in yesterday. I had forgotten how satisfying meat in a meal could be. I was full after a much smaller portion than I'd normally eat of a vegetarian dish. I don't know if I will keep on eating meat, but for now I'm happy to eat chicken and some fish. The thought of red meat still grosses me out a bit.
well done to everyone who is fasting on a weekend!

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome, Redandyellow

I suggest aiming for 1500, then review after 2 weeks (best to allow 2 weeks before tweaking, unless of course you don't feel well on it)
Aim for 500 cals on the 2 FDs.
Do post and let us know how you are doing. It helps to have moral support, especially on FDs.

[BigChocFrenzy]

MrsW No need for red meat, but fish & poultry can provide all the animal protein you need (you might enjoy turkey & duck too and don't forget shrimps / prawns)
That should boost your iron & minerals - those cravings sound like your body might have deficiencies.

We evolved as omnivores for many millenia, eating other animals, veg and occasional fruit & nuts. Hence, imo, that is the diet most suited to us. Some people adapt less well to veganism than others. Some don't tolerate grains well.

[TalkinPeace]

redandyellow
I grew up in a wheelchair house
hoiking yourself in and out of your chair is strenuous even if you only do it a few times a day.
If you are using the motor to propel then between times you will not be much above BMR
so, look at half way between BMR and sedentary TDEE and aim to make as many of your calories be vegetables / protein / plant fats as possible
so that you get max pleasure out of what you eat

Iamblossom
You asked why NO SNACKING
Simple
snacking is not natural and not good for us

Snacking was invented in the west in the 70's : when the obesity epidemic started.
Our bodies are not evolved to cope with a constant supply of food.
For hundreds of thousands of years humans and their ancestors ate once a day if they were lucky and once or twice a day once agriculture kicked in.

Snacking was invented by the food industry to make more money : it has never, ever had any nutritional benefit.
ALL of the studies that suggested eating several times a day were funded by the food industry.

Giving your digestive tract time to hoover into the corners is really good for it and for you.

[lbnblbnb]

Ended up having lunch at MIL - was sensible but it was lovely food. Just logged it all and only just over 500, so could still do a FD. Really pleased.

[DinoSnores]

Fasting today. It is so much easier when I drink lots of water. I do find it hard to do that sometimes!

meerka, it is possible to do blood tests for insulin resistance (measuring glucose and insulin levels) but it is only really done in specialist centres for very specialist patients. (I used to work in the area.) You might be able to pick up early problems of glucose metabolism though before you'd see overt diabetes in the bloods though.

not2b, that weight loss is great. You are consistently losing 1 lb a week which is absolutely excellent. Well done!

[JessiePinkman]

Place marking for FD tomorrow.
Last week was my first on this woe & ive lost 3lb happy!
Unfortunately mfp only shows 1lb loss because my lightest weight since downloading mfp about two years ago was 1lb heavier than I am now. I have been a stone more though, this time last year I was 18 stone something!
Fingers crossed this is the diet for me at last and I'm going at it great guns this week (mon & weds) Thanks everyone for the support

[Iamblossom]

Hi all.

FD for me tomorrow too jessie - will weigh tomorrow morning to see what weight loss over the first week has happened.

Am still finding that 5:2 for me = 2 days of eating v little and 5 days of being on a low cal diet. But if it helps me lose the pesky 5 last pounds then I guess that's fine.

Low cal and low carb is quite difficult though.

[mrsmugoo]

Ok so just hit the carbs - finished off a load of leftover pasta and then shamefully started eating dry granola out of the packet. I've had a tough day! So haven't managed 1200 but did manage 1600 which is my TDEE so I'm not going to be too hard on myself.

FD tomorrow.

[Meerka]

hmm, it sounds as if it is something specific I'd have to push for. I will ask about a test for that and thyroid next time I'm at the doctor's definitely and see if he's ok with it, but not make a specific appointment.

Giving your digestive tract time to hoover into the corners lovely description :D

Shrimps / prawns are brilliant FD protein. the ones here are 100g for 65cals!

jessie congrats, 3lb is great =)

[BigChocFrenzy]

Well done on your SV, Jessie That's 3 lb, a good start.
Many folk have lost a lot of weight on these 5:2 threads. You can do this too.
Just be patient and the weekly loss mounts up to make a big difference.

Blossom If you keep eating between meals, then your insulin levels are raised most of the time: insulin tends to promote fat storage rather than fat burning.
Your pancreas (which produce insulin) need to rest between meals.
As tip said, when your body isn't constantly processing food, it has more time for repair.

[Iamblossom]

Meerka I found prawns in lidl on Saturday, a 100g pot for 65 cals, bloody brilliant! Will deffo be buying more

[BigChocFrenzy]

Blossom TDEE is the daily amount of food your body needs.
For people who've been overweight quite a while, their "natural" eating is often much more than their body can burn.
So, the NFDs are 5 days retraining, rather than "dieting." Don't worry, many others have been through this. Fasting helps you learn new habits.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Prawns are my FD standby, with masses of salad & balsamic dressing, or in a veg stirfry with chilies & garlic.

Well done, fusspot sounds a great vacation; you were in control and you held steady.

[confusedandemployed]

Evening all, had a very busy day today. Walked dogs this morning, carrying my 35lb DD in a backpack. We live in a very hilly area so that was quite challenging. Couldn't face the gym after that so I swam 1km instead.
Then the joys of IKEA... Cod and chips in the cafe (680cal). Don't fancy much for tea tonight after that so I'll come in around 1700cal I think. Tomorrow is a FD.
Congrats on all the SVs, have a nice evening all.

[acatcalledjohn]

Just on the train back from a lovely day in London. Not been too bad today. Had porridge for breakfast, homemade roll with cheese/meat for lunch, strawbs and blueberries to snack. We walked 4.5 miles around Hampstead, and only treated ourselves to a pint halfway through and coffee and a pastry at the end. Not bad for a Sunday when a pub lunch would be the obvious option...

Meerka, you are so very right about the Dutch loving salt and potatoes! I grew up in NL and remember the day we stopped adding salt to the water when boiling potatoes. It tasted so bland (used to it now).

Fusspot, where is this gin fest? I simply have to know this! I luuurves me some gin!