Feeling fed up... Why bother learning an instrument in ptimary school to drop it in year 7?

[stillenacht]

Exactly that. Feeling very impotent as a secondary music teacher, going through my registers "Yes Miss I can play the violin/trombone/viola/flute/clarinet. I played it at Primary school but gave up before my 11plus/at the end of year 5/4/3".

Every bloody year more and more kids tell me this. Why cant kids commit to learning for the long term?Argh!!!!

[78bunion]

May be where we live (SE) is different because of the emphasis from immigrant families in private schools on hard work, Tiger mothers, practising, doing things which are hard. Perhaps that is why there are loads of children learning instruments. I suppose there may have been a drop off but I have not noticed it. If your prospective employer might sing in a choir or play in an orchestra because you are from or going into that kind of middle class culture it does no harm to have that in common with employers and everyone knows it is pretty difficult to get a couple of grade 8s so that is fairly good CV enhancement too never mind it is fun for life.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

She doesn't get home until at least 7.30pm so by the time you factor in homework (approximately 30-60 mins per night though she does try & do some in the car it's time for bed. She's in bed by 9pm as she has to get up at 6am.

We feel she has to have at least 10-15 mins down time each night so she doesn't get burnt out. She is having individual singing lessons as well and music theory group lessons.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Pictures - that sounds an awful lot. 10-15 minutes down time really isnt enough. It's barely time to read a chapter of a book. Do the kids really manage that long term?

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Sounds like its a long drive or bus journey.

[curlew]

"We feel she has to have at least 10-15 mins down time each night so she doesn't get burnt out."

That is not viable long term. It just isn't.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

curlew It is for kids who are like that. They don't view the dancing (or acting or practising) as work. They view everything else as a pain (possibly even enforced Telly watching) that takes them away from what they want to be doing.

[curlew]

I know. That's why their parents have to take charge. Just because a child wants to do something doesn't mean they should.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

No curlew, they don't. They will do what they feel is right for their child. There is nothing intrinsically better about watching Telly than dancing or playing an instrument. Or rehearsing for a play/show. If I was you I'd save my disapproval for parents who 'let' their kids play on xboxes. Of course, there absolutely is a time and a place for sending you parents and siblings funny pictures of animals with hilarious captions (which seems to be the main teen and preteen activity this month) but that activity can actually be conducted alongside things like dance, practice etc (and indeed seems to happen most often when the senders are on the bus. And the sendees are in meetings).

I wonder - would you be so disapproving if Pictures DD was spending a lot of time doing elite sport? Or horse riding? Or dog walking? Is it just the arts you are so against?

[Lancelottie]

DS, while nothing like so dedicated, was out of the house last Weds till 10 pm without a break, because he had a band rehearsal, music lesson and drama rehearsal all in the same evening, and was outraged at the thought of missing any.

So I can sort of see where Pictures is coming from. If DS had the chance to go to a performing arts school he would leap at it.

[curlew]

What a very bizarre post!

What I am against is only having 10-15 minutes "down time" a day! I would think that whatever he or she was a doing with the rest of the time. I am aware that there are children who would pursue their particular "thing" to the exclusion of all else. And I believe that it is their parent's responsibility to make sure that there is balance in their lives.

[BackforGood]

stillenacht - I have 2 dc who went up to secondary full of enthusiasm for their music. ds was a cornet player and a singer, dd (3 yrs later, different school) a flute player.
Both wanted to carry on their music. Both got worn down by the complete lack of 'oomph' from their respective music departments.
ds had NO opportunities to sing (until he started a drama club when he was in Yr10), and the 'brass ensemble' was so uninspiring, he on'y lasted 6 months before losing the will to live.
At dd's school she tried to play in the flute choir, but got fed up of turning up to find it had been cancelled, etc., she too stopped bothering. There was one opportunity to join a choir - probably 50 Yr7s sang 2 Christmas Carols, and that was it - no choir happened again.

So it's not always the dc who stop doing music through their own choice, it's the lack of opportunity, through the lack of imagination and enthusiasm of the music teachers in these 2 schools.

[DropYourSword]

I was forced to continue to play viola for a couple of years in secondary school. I just didn't enjoy it at all. It was a real chore, not a pleasure and in the end didn't get me anywhere. Looking back, I really don't see what the benefit was off forcing me to continue. Nothing I was ever given was anywhere near the kind of music I enjoyed and there was no grade system for me, so nothing to even work towards, which I think I would have at least appreciated. I understand however that that isn't really the case for most music students and that the grade system is pretty pregnant in music teaching. No idea why it wasn't mentioned by my musicteacher?! If they aren't enjoying it, they should be allowed to stop.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

curlew And there was I thinking you telling pictures that her DD's life 'isn't viable' was bizarre (given that you know very little about it - which is exactly the position I'm in and why I know I'm not qualified to tell her how to parent).

[curlew]

It is not viable in the long term for anyone to only have 10-15 minutes down time a day. I don't have to know anything else about the child concerned's life to know that.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

I think that with any activity, if you are doing it to the exclusion of not having any free time at all you risk burning out.

I say this as a parent of a child who is very driven and tries to balance her music with her academics and her sport. If it were up to her she would work til 10pm every night and its my job to make sure that she has some time off. Else by the time she's half way through university she's going to have a nervous breakdown. I can see that when she's exhausted she doesnt let herself off at all and that's no good for anyone.

[ZZZenagain]

My guess is Pictures cares more about her own dd's wellbeing than any of us do and I am sure she wouldn't have her at this school if it was exhausting her dd or making her stressed and unhappy. Probably all that dancing every day after lessons is giving her an adreniln boost and keeping her top fit. It maybe is easier to manage that than say a musically intense school with lots of practise of instruments - sitting bolt upright at the piano for 2 hours after school I think is more likely to cause you problems than dancing.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Whew. Didn't realise I would cause such a debate

I do worry about the commute - basically she has a bursary but not an MDS award so we can't afford for her to board at school

We've now arranged for her to eat her evening meal at school with the boarders which has given her a bit if extra time.

When she got back last night she managed 20 mins piano practice. She then got bored watching TV do started doing her stretches. I had to tell her to stop in the end

She reads a lot. She's a real bookworm and usually reads or plays on her iPad on the way to & from school.

If she was at normal school shed be finishing at 4pm then is be driving her to various dance classes most nights. The only difference being she danced from 4.25pm - 7.15 but With a 45 min break half way through when she ate & dud homework in the changing room with her friends.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

Pictures :) My DD2 (who is younger than your DD, still at primary school) does either music or dance or drama after school every day of the week, and she currently has an extra dance class on saturdays and a full day of rehearsals for two shows she is in on Sundays. So I know what it's like! She only lives 20 mins away from her primary school though. Things will have to change at secondary school, when she goes - she'll be able to take one instrumental lesson in school again (her primary school stopped offering flute this term which we were very about) and music theory too, and I guess we might make her drop one dance lesson. Although we might not.

OP - she definitely won't be giving up her instruments though. :)

[78bunion]

It depends on the child. Many want 4.30 - 10 to be down time every day. Others never stop doing school work, school hobbies or whatever.

I do feel the music schools can be a bit much for some children which probably ours could have got into (lots of high grades early on, music scholarships for 3 of them etc) as for ours music was one of other hobbies too and not a passion in the way it has to be if you going to go into that kind of environment (and same with dance and drama schools).

I am sure like a lot of parents who are into their children do a lot of high standard classical music though parents do try to pick a school which is going to match their child (and we have been lucky to achieve that - I would have not coped easily with a school with not many children doing classic music).

[bruffin]

My Dcs gave up piano in primary because their teacher left, who was lovely and replaced with a really crap teacher. She shouted at ds, who is dyslexic and struggled to read music but was good at memorising pieces and gave my DD one piece to learn that was little more than a 3 fingered exercise for the whole of one term. She also had her favorites and piano assemblies went from every child performing their piece what ever level they were, to her favorites performing 3 or 4 pieces while other children were stuck doing a single simple duet. It was awful and many children stopped playing despite years of lessons.
DD went on to take singing for a while at secondary but the cost became prohibitive and we couldnt really afford it anymore.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

bunion - my DS wants 'downtime' 24/7 (so do I, actually. )

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

DD1's primary stopping flute (the teacher retired, they didn't replace her) has been a real pain for us. Luckily, DD2's teacher (who teaches her in school) teaches at a private school quite close to where we live. She normally only teaches secondary school aged children but she offered to teach DD2 because she is already doing pretty well, and hopefully if DD2 ends up going to the same school as DD1 then there will be continuity. DD2's school lets her leave 15 mins early one day a week, so she can fit the flute lesson in before one of her dance lessons. It means she has a really jammed day though, and things would have been a lot more convenient if she was still learning in school. But it is what it is.

[ZZZenagain]

It is wonderful to have a day or at least an afternoon where you don't have to go out and do something. I feel like that so I could imagine dc do too but sometimes dc love something so much, it doesn't feel like having to do something. I know dd's friend who does martial arts 8 x week told me when I asked her how she manages, that it is easy for her because she loves doing it. I suppose if she was going to a Tutor on Mondays, chess on Tuesdays, cello on Wednesdays etc it would feel like a heavy burden because she would feel she perhaps has to do it all rather than really enjoys it all. I like to laze about and read a book so I don't really understand massively active young people but I don't see how it can be a bad thing to exercise a lot if you want to do it.

I know with my own dd if she has spent 10 minutes on maths, she starts yawning, her eyes glaze over with boredom and she genuinely seems to get incredibly tired. I presume because she has to do something that doesn't interest her in the least. Yet she can play the violin for 2,3,4+ hours a day - given the chance and she doesn't get tired. I suppose it is like tinkering about with lego, trying to get the Perplexus ball to the end of the labryinth or just drawing complicated squiggle designs and relaxes you if you really like it, even if you have to concentrate to do it.

Mind you I feel the same about 10 minutes into looking into maths so she may have that from me.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Pictures sounds a lot less scary put that way :)

Dd has two really full on days with very little time at home. I wish they were spread out more.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Hello Stilenhact?

I can't speak for all primaries but round here there seem to be a few dc in each class who have an individual instrumental lesson from the ITP.
Anybody else who plays anything either has a private lesson and these are fewer dc than with ITP, or as part of the whole class, for one year as wider participation.
It isn't enough. It's ok for authorities to say we have the ensembles and teachers, unless there are more children encouraged to play.
Many primary teachers don't have much of an interest in music, nor the time, to be fair.
If parents don't encourage, most won't get the opportunity.
Our LA is fantastic and offers subsidised tuition for those on out of work benefit. You can also join as many ensembles as you wish for £25 per half term. There are bands, ensembles, groups, orchestras, and every imaginable instrument has little groups.
My dd would practice and muck about with music all day if I didn't stop her. Her lessons and practice equate to about three quarters of time spent on education.
She spent an hour today waving a stick around, to a cd, showing how well she thinks she can conduct