Feeling fed up... Why bother learning an instrument in ptimary school to drop it in year 7?

[stillenacht]

Exactly that. Feeling very impotent as a secondary music teacher, going through my registers "Yes Miss I can play the violin/trombone/viola/flute/clarinet. I played it at Primary school but gave up before my 11plus/at the end of year 5/4/3".

Every bloody year more and more kids tell me this. Why cant kids commit to learning for the long term?Argh!!!!

You know what - the LAs are very anxious about the tutoring effect and want to put a stop to it. This would give a great incentive to the kind of parent happy to shell out for extra-curricular to divert their cash to music (useful) rather than 11+ tutoring (redundant). Suggest it to them!

In France DC can get extra points on their bac for music, art and other extra-curricular activities as an incentive to parents not to give up on those (costly) extras.

I agree with word factory, that many children start lots of hobbies when they're little, but as they get older, the commitments for all the hobbies naturally increases. So, children have to make a decision about which ones they want to commit to. And the others fall by the wayside.

My DD started gym, 1 hour a week, ballet tap and modern1 hour a week and swimming 1/2 hour a week. Over the years this has increased - gym is now at 18 hours, ballet has become 2 hours (but that includes dropping the tap) and swimming has fallen by the wayside.

Even if she didn't compete at gym, the hours naturally increase. They start with a half hour lesson, but this can turn into a two hour plus lesson when they're older.

As children get older, and better at their hobbies, the demands upon them increases and they have to choose. My daughter also learns the flute (she's year 5). It's manageable at the moment, as she doesn't get a lot of homework. But when she goes to secondary and her homework increases, she'll have to make decisions about which of the three hobbies (gym / ballet / flute) she wants to commit to and which ones she'll give up. Unfortunately, you can't do all the extra curricular stuff with all the extra homework at secondary school.

Personally, I'd prefer to see less homework, and more children doing extra curricular like music. And I'm a teacher too .

I always just want to shout from the rooftops, "Music is an academic subject!!! Please don't drop it as the benefits it provides academically in a non musical way are countless as well as the obvious musical benefits".

The last 7 Oxbridge students across the whole sixth form at my school all (bar one) had music grades at grade 6 and above and 5 had GCSE Music at A/A*. (2 did A level music). Please please support music as Gove is trying to kill it off and schools are dropping it/cutting it down

I agree stillenacht - music is an academic
discipline with all sorts of cross-disciplinary and transferable skill benefits in addition to the pure joy of it.

Music is however extremely expensive to teach... Which is why state funded education has such a hard time supporting it.

That must be why I am so lousy at music.

Dd got to grade 3 on her primary school lessons but we haven't heard anything about when her lessons will start in y7. I'm feeling a bit frustrated. May try emailing the music dept. this weekend.

I don't know how music lessons will work well, Dd has to remember a different timeslot each week for her lesson. I'd rather she went private but she's keen to still do it thru school.

Can't comment about quitting; I'd say most violin kids simply lost interest or wouldn't practice regularly so their parents didn't want to pay any more, by y3-4. Nothing to do with workloads, computers or other exC activities.

DSS1 did violin and DSS2 did guitar. DSS1 didn't carry on for long because playing a violin on your own is awful. DSS2 managed several years but he has no voice so his enthusiasm waned at his failure to perform in public as he imagined!

Has anyone had the pleasure of themselves or their children learning the violin by the Suzuki method? Fine for kids of 4 (and what it was designed for) but soul-destroying for children from 7 up. I was 'taught' by one of the foremost Suzuki specialists of the time. The main activity was playing 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star' in a number of variations. No effort was made to train us to make a pleasant noise. Learning the vibrato technique (the way of wobbling your wrist and the finger on the string to get the violin to sing) was never mentioned. Lessons at school were individual then, but only consisted of playing scales (badly) for half an hour.

Somehow I eventually scraped through Grade 5. Goodness knows how low the standards must have been, because I sounded like shit.

Unfortunately it wasn't until I was 21 that I was exposed to Irish music, that I discovered was really exciting, that I'd really like to have been able to play it, and that I would have been able to play with people in pubs etc all my life and used it to have a great time musically and socially.

Ten wasted years, just to spend my twenties watching other people who had had the chance to choose non-orchestral instruments and were taught properly, playing in bands and having fun, while I sat there being 'the lead guitarist's girlfriend', too embarrassed to get up and have a go myself because I after all that 'tuition', I just wasn't good enough.

My prominent Suzuki teacher died a few years ago, and got a wonderful obituary in the paper. I read it and spat.

SoWhat there's nothing stopping you getting into playing folk now, surely? My MiL is 60 and has weekly folk fiddle lessons.

SoWhat, the complete opposite of what you say is true for us. My DD (12) plays Suzuki violin and she's been doing vibrato for a couple of years now. She has great tone and poise and has always made a lovely sound. She plays in an orchestra, has group lessons once a month and has even played in a Suzuki organised fiddle workshop. She's busked at Christmas for charity and played at the RFH and Snape Maltings. Oh and she's a music scholar. I'm sorry that your teacher did you (and the Suzuki method) such a disservice.

I think the money has to be a big part of it.

Here you can have a free instrument for the first year, but after that you have to buy your own. Lots of children give up after that first year as either their parents can't afford to buy an instrument or they don't feel that their child is sufficiently committed to warrant buying one.

We were fairly lucky that DS2 and DD's instruments weren't too expensive to buy. DS2's trumpet was bought through the county music service (I think they get bulk buy discounts) and cost about £115, DD's violin was second hand from the music shop and cost £55. They are 9 and 7 and really enjoy music, playing in County Wind Band and Strings Ensemble, so I hope they'll carry on to secondary.

DS1 is 11 and has played the piano since he was 7, but has taken up the violin too this year as he fancies trying an orchestral instrument. He is taking advantage of the fact that he can get the instrument for free for a year. I don't know whether he'll carry on when he goes to secondary next year, it is too early to tell yet.

Pickledsiblings, that's good to hear. I wonder why my Suzuki teacher was so crap? It was the early 1970s. He was native Japanese and his English language skills were still in their early days, so perhaps that didn't help. Perhaps his rigid and unimaginative teaching methods had gone down well with little kids in Japan but he hadn't realised they might not suit older children in a less regimented society like the UK? I dunno. Does your DD have to play Twinkle Twinkle Effing Star variations though? I wouldn't have minded if it was just used to teach basic techniques when we were complete beginners - but we still had to do it, over and over again, for what seemed like years! God, I hate that tune now..

Vinegar Drinker - yes, I did have a try at learning the Irish fiddle in my 20s, and found a good teacher. Unfortunately my hands seemed to have stiffened up so much by then that I couldn't get them to do vibrato. A lot of Irish music is played very fast and I thought I'd never get up to speed enough to play with the Irish musicians I knew, so I let myself get discouraged and decided I must be no good. So I threw myself into partying and being a Gothic clothes horse for thirty years instead.

Now that I'm a middle-aged lady and that's all over, I'm looking around for things to do and wishing I had persevered with an instrument that I could play with other people. But as you say, it's never too late.. Not the fiddle now, because I injured my right arm a few years ago, but I've always liked the sound of the Uilleann pipes (Irish bagpipes).. and I believe there's an Irish music school in the city I now live in.. d'you know, that might be an idea. Perhaps I should go down there and see about having a bash.. If your MIL's doing it, perhaps there will be some other older learners too..

"Why cant kids commit to learning for the long term?Argh!!!!"

Perhaps they just found something else they wanted to commit to instead. Many parents can't afford to pay for more than one activity: if dd was to play an instrument she couldn't have drama lessons.

Besides, that early introduction to an instrument will mean they have more of a connection to music and more understanding of music later in life. Not everybody has to play. Music needs more people in the audience than up on the podium.

I gave up the piano, the cello and the guitar, basically because I gradually came to realise that they were taking time from what I really wanted to do. But I go to concerts, I buy DVD's, I watch music programmes on the telly: I am the reason the real musicians can keep going.

What about you, OP? Are you still keeping up the art you were taught in primary school? Painting watercolours, making portraits of your nearest and dearest, making pottery utensils? What about the sports- are you still committed to those? Most people tend to narrow their commitments as they grow older.

It's just too expensive for most people. Have a look at the private schools where the majority of Y7s will be having instrumental lessons. Unfair. My worst year, when I had two DSs at junior conservatoires, was over £10,000 for fees, courses, music ...

I think most people are saying for your weekly individual lesson at school it is about £200 a term. If the parent is musical you can teach the child yourself which we did with some instruments - piano, singing and music theory but even so it can be expensive.

Another issue is time. I sit with the children when they practise as I am accompanying them on the piano. That is quite a time commitment. Not all parents are able to do that.

I agree with Moom that the majority of children in many private schools in Y7 will be doing lessons - I mentioned one school above with over 500 pupils a week having lessons at school. That is not the case in schools with parents who cannot afford the cost.

In one area of the North East there are loads of secondary age musicians. Especially brass. In the schools music service they have the regional orchestra (at least 100kids) then a wind orchestra (another 30 kids) the brass band, - similar number, then they have the local orchestras as well.
This is not counting the choirs and students who have lessons but don't come along to orchestras.

I think it depends on the quality of the local schools music services. Ours go into both primary and secondary schools to do lessons and it costs very little indeed to do. If you are having lessons it costs nothing extra to go along to the ensembles, and if you aren't having lessons the ensembles only cost about £1 a week no matter how many you go to.
When both of my kids were having lessons and hiring instruments I was paying less than £30 a month in total. Reading all these comments makes me realise how lucky we are to be living up here!

Well my dh must teach at some odd private schools as no way do the majority of year 7s learn an instrument. He teaches at 5 private schools 4 senior, 1 prep. Prep school is a choir school, yet ironically is very obstructive in actually letting the children have music lessons! Dh has to try and timetable lessons in break, lunch time, can't miss PE..... At one school they have introduced a scheme where every child gets a couple of free lessons on an instrument to try and build the numbers up.

He has had pupils drop out because they can't afford the lessons. Parents are already scraping together to pay the school fees and just can't do the lessons on top. Bit of a cheek when they tell dh the lesson fees are too high.

He taught at a very rough comp many years ago. One of his pupils was very disruptive in class, frequently excluded etc.. He was an angel in his trumpet lesson. It was the only time the boy got any one to one time. He was eventually expelled. Music lessons can be important to some children for the individual attention not for the music!

I think that the culture in the secondary school really makes a big difference. I know 3 comps round here - two of which with really thriving orchestra's and lots of music groups for all sorts of interests. The third school seems to have no interest in music whatsoever - even though I'm sure the music department would disagree.

dd is a musician even though we arent and goes to a comp. Her school have got a really thriving huge musical community and its a major part of her school social life. The headteacher plays an instrument and joins in as do many of the teachers. She gains so much out of it socially, so whilst practising scales is a chore - the rest of it is fun.

I also agree that many kids have lots of activities in primary school that all start out as an hour or two once a week. By the end of primary school they find that their activities require a lot more time and commitment. They have to start making choices about which activities they are serious about and drop the rest.

I agree that money is a reality that cannot be overlooked.

I am currently paying way over 3k for my DD1 at junior conservatoire, plus £50 x week for the other children's music lessons on top. And that's without books, petrol to get them there and back, instruments to buy, etc..

We can only afford it because I work, if for whatever reason I didn't work full time there is no way we could afford it and they would have to stop learning. It would be a massive shame, but I don't believe there would be any other choice..

It is just sooo expensive. My dd is desperate to learn an instrument but we simply can't afford to put another child through lessons. She is older and never have the opportunity to trial anything when she was in primary. I have tried to encourage her to learn with the Girls brigade band, or offered to teach her woodwind myself but she is suffering from the Cowell affect and only wants to learn guitar which is £15 ph.

DT1 is learning violin, and it costs so much!! He is only learning it because he started on the free trial, then subsidised lessons and after all that I couldn't really turn around and tell him he couldn't continue, so now we are stuck with the bill. This year both dts get to learn the clarinet at school for free and I am dreading dt2 wanting to continue it as we simply can't afford it. Apparently so far he is struggling a bit to produce a note and I am secretly relieved. Although I can play clarinet and could teach him myself to at least grade 4 level then maybe do lessons.

I so agree about the importance of music if you have a talent, eldest DD did recorder at primary, and piano outside of school, but didn't take any grade exams as she suffered from nerves too badly. In senior school she joined choir and her group of friends were musical so she took up a brass instrument and started to do her exams in both instruments. She now has confidence plays in all the school ensembles including solo on her 3rd instrument (percussion) has an A grade GCSE. I am sure that developing her love of music and being able to perform enabled her to do well across all her exams.
I'm tone deaf and can't okay anything.

When we were in Germany where we lived they offered weekend workshops a couple of times a year for strings players with a mixture of classical and film music. These were for the very young beginners through to maybe age 14, and as the children were grouped according to ability, they could accommodate all levels. So starting Friday night, all day Saturday, rehearsal and concert (tutti)on Sunday. They only charged about 15 quid and the idea was to catch children at that 'critical age' before they drop their instruments. Maybe if you could offer something like that held in the secondary school for dc who have not yet completed primary, it might help.

Another thing some schools did there was allow dc from other schools to participate in their big bands, orchestras and ensembles so you would get motivated and accomplished dc from other schools playing in the ensembles of schools other than their own. My dd who was at primary was allowed to play violin in two secondary school orchestras and had a great time, learnt a lot. Each orchestra would have 2-3 weekends a year extra practice and a yearly residential. So sociable and also musically challenging enough to keep up interest.

DD and DS have both given up lessons at secondary. DS had them for his first year, but then the clarinet teacher left. He found missing a different lesson each week disruptive so we didn't actively find another clarinet teacher at school, and frankly he life is very busy and expensive with other hobbies and clubs after school to fit in and find the money for another club. If he dropped a couple of things it might be possible. But, he does regularly play - he attends wind band (is the only clarinet!!) and takes his clarinet to play in school musoc lessons too. If he chooses music GCSE he will have to start learning again, but at the moment all he wants to do is play with other people.

DD had flute lessons all teh way through junior school, but as homework and other clubs increased it was a complete battle to get her to practise, and frankly her dancing lessons are so expensive that we decided taht if she would not commit to practising withh=out nagging the flute lessons would stop. She has however joined wind band and flute choir to play with others, and has come home with the flute teacher's email address and phone number...

ok my kids won't get technically better through playing with other people, but that is the bit they enjoy, not playing on their own or taking exams. They are both of a standard where they can participate, and crucially both have their own instruments - I deliberately guided them into choosing instruments we had already in the family.

I can understamd it must be soul destroying for you, but there are so many clubs out there for our kids ot take part in, and they only have so much time. DS is just more interested in STEM, and DD is more interested in dancing, and this is where they do put hours of effort.

For the parents of DC at Junior Conservatoire - what do you get for £ 3,000 ( or whatever) per year?