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Brexit

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 10:47

Do you remember when politics was boring?

This week we have had a Tory MP recalled, a Tory MP caught on film appearing to assault a protester and our likely Tory prime minister caught on tape having a serious row with his girlfriend which resulted in the police being called.

This is a government with a majority of 3 (with the DUP).

There are apparently 100 MPs who are not on board with no deal, but its not clear how far they will go to try and stop this. We do have Dominic Grieve stating that if Johnson is elected leader he will not become PM as he will not have the confidence of the house and can not go to the Queen to say he has. He has recently said he would resign the Tory Whip if necessary, which he has not previously said. The government has only to lose 2 more MPs for it to lose its majority...

It is important to remember that until Johnson goes to the Queen, May remains PM and retains the powers of the office. Could he become leader but not PM?

This crisis would most likely lead to a GE. The only real question would be over the timing over this. Would it be immediate or strung out over the summer? At this point this does look highly likely before October.

If the Tory moderates get their way, then the ERG hardliners hit back and do the same thing even with the looming threat of the Brexit Party or a Remain surge.

Its hard to see how we AVOID Brenda from Bristol being tracked down for a rent-a-quote. And there is a strong possibility of another Tory Leadership Election before the year is out, under several scenarios.

Meanwhile the EU Brexit Team has largely broken up, with most of its lead players having new personal priorities with internal EU elections. Our biggest ally in Tusk will no longer be there to protect us, so EU politics post 31st October could look quite different, and less favourable, to the UK.

Whilst the talk around parliament from seems to indicate that the UK will look for another extension (and this includes from Camp Johnson), this is very inward looking. At some point there needs to be a wakeup call that the EU want us out, and will be prepared to force us to no deal whether we like it or not.

Equally the idea that we could have a PV is also dependant now on EU good will, as we've faffed about for so long with Tory Brats. And relies on the EU still being keen on another referendum. Will this come to a head with the EU saying no and shattering the hopes of the other side of the house?

At this point, what happens with the Withdrawal Agreement? The idea that the withdrawal agreement is dead isn't quite as clear cut as you might think. If its a choice in parliament on the very last day of No Deal v the Withdrawal Agreement what will they do? Will they recognise the moment? Certainly I think there are a few opposition MPs who HAVE started to notice this is a possibility this time around. Its still largely unspoken though. No one wants to acknowledge political reality.

We still haven't hit the wall of reality. We avoided in March. But its still there and no going away.

I think there are two things we can count on over the next few weeks; more outrage and chaos and a slow dawning of the realisation that May was dreadful, but it really could be worse.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:44

Don't hold your breath waiting for JC to stop getting arse splinters over PV:

Laura Kuenssberg Retweeted iain watson@iainjwatson
I'm hearing the meeting between @jeremycorbyn^ and the @uklabour^ affiliated unions didn't reach a firm conclusion on #brexit policy

- another meeting wil be pencilled in for next week but shadow cabinet will still discuss brexit policy tomorrow

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 16:46

Interesting the traction "Johnson is frit" appears to be gaining. Can he keep ducking a head to head with Hunt until the close of polling ? Is there any point in holding any more debates now votes are being cast ?

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 16:47

True howabout [tea]GinSmile, opinion polls have a

And anyway opinion polls tend to have a +/- 2% margin of error (or more Grin).

....as was discovered at the last GE Grin

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:51

BJ is good news for pretty and her DS ?

Britain Elects@britainelects

Scottish independence voting intention:

Yes: 49% (+1)
No: 51% (-1)

via @Panelbase, last week, Chgs. w/ May
....
BUT
.....
Scottish independence voting intention (ft. scenario prompting Boris Johnson being UK Prime Minister):

Yes: 53%
No: 47%

via @Panelbase, last week

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 16:55

So, when it comes down to the UK wanting trade deals with Japan, China, USA for example, should it be a Hunt team or a Boris team leader?

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:58

Britain Elects@britainelects

Westminster voting intention:

LAB: 26% (-7)
CON: 24% (-4)
BREX: 20% (+8)
LDEM: 18% (+5)
GRN: 6% (+3)
CHUK: 1% (-1)
UKIP: 1% (-2)

via @Survation, 19 - 20 Jun, Chgs. w/ 22 May
...
We also included hypothetical "if Boris, if Hunt" Conservative leader scenarios.
(but maybe before BJ's latest boob hit the headlines)

Interesting that the choice of venereal disease doesn't affect LAB, but does affect CON, LD, BREX
.... and BREX prefers Hunt ?? (I must find the actual poll data to check)

Current, IF Boris, IF Hunt
CON 24%, 26%, 23%
LAB 26%, 26%, 26%
LD 18%, 21%, 18%
BREX 20%, 16%, 21%

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BestIsWest · 24/06/2019 17:03

grannycake we DO have the same MP and I had a very similar email today as well. She is FAB.

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 17:04

TiP has given me an interesting statistic to add into the discussion:

... analysis in the current Economist .... the Average vote across all wards in the UK was 59:41 Leave : Remain
The result was only close because of some massive remain bubbles in London and University cities .... it surprised me but the magazine has links to the data

The Economist analysis was apparently that the numbers are probably far more long standing than Remainers would like to think.

In parts of the east Midlands a lot of Asians voted leave to get better immigration rights from outside the EU .....
Apparently the highest leave margin was Boston at 75:25 but the highest remain was 95:5
hence how echo chambers form

I'd add to that that, knowing my own constituency voted 70:30 Remain:Leave and that every LA in Scotland voted Remain (but not all by as much as that) with the overall Scottish vote being 62:38, that it demonstrates even more how utterly different England is, with the exception of the big and university cities (the metropolitan elite Wink).

TiP is still having a daily read of the threads though - she treats them like the best newspaper column Grin

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LonelyTiredandLow · 24/06/2019 17:06

More confirmation re BJ and Bannon, this time from another of Bannon's fan girls ; Farage. Interesting article here where he says he doesn't trust BJ but still will support him and also says he would do a deal with the devil to get a "clean Brexit" Hmm think that ship passed in 2016, or is he talking about his friend over the pond?

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 17:09

In parts of the east Midlands a lot of Asians voted leave to get better immigration rights from outside the EU .....

How does that square with the fact that some Leavers voted specifically to eliminate immigration - from everywhere. (Including some who wanted to "send everyone back") ?

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 17:11

BigChoc - I've linked to the source data (or at least to the website that then links to the Excel data tables).

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LonelyTiredandLow · 24/06/2019 17:11

Another interesting bit in that article is Farage stating "many Eurosceptics have joined the Tory party" - just as the papers have said, Tory party has been taken over by kippers and anyone else wanting to stick an oar in.

Yes, democracy in this country is laughable and nothing to do with the EU!

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LonelyTiredandLow · 24/06/2019 17:12

DGR it doesn't square - just another reason to explain Brexit won't make anyone happy as no one agreed what it was for beforehand.

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 17:13

DGR - whoever said all Leavers were logical? Confused

That disjoint is along the same lines as the "Left Behind"/those suffering under austerity voting to give themselves Westminster a bloody nose with their protest vote Confused

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 17:17

In parts of the east Midlands a lot of Asians voted leave to get better immigration rights from outside the EU .....

Also, they didn't explain why we had to leave the EU to achieve this anyway. Nothing in the UKs membership of the EU limited immigration from outside the EU. Unless there was a feeling that leaving the EU would supplant EU immigration with non EU immigration. Which makes that driver as racist as the one which was promoting limiting non-EU immigration.

Never assume victims can't be oppressors, by the way. No matter who tries to tell you.

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RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 17:18

My suspicion over the 'no deal' poll is that it's rather more complex than it suggests.

I suspect it reflects at least three camps who have said they support no deal

  1. people who genuinely think no deal is a good idea and actively want in. These are hard leavers.
  2. some who think no deal is now inevitable. They don't want it, but don't see an alternative viable way forward or one that doesn't have massive political fallout. Thus they just want to get on with it. This is a mix of soft leavers and soft Remainers.
  3. the nihilists who are so bloody pissed off with it all, they want to see the Tories fuck it and leavers get a dose of what they voted for as punishment. These are former hard line Remainers (who are notably better off).

    Understanding this, is probably quite important because if a viable alternative or a sudden sea change were to happen, I'm not sure that you'd have the full number of people who say they want no deal being actively disappointed if it didn't actually happen.

    I think the problem is the question perhaps over simplifies feeling and doesn't reflect the levels of frustration and feeling of being in limbo that the ongoing saga has created.

    I'm not surprised that no deal support is rising. Its something I suspected would happen. Its connected to this idea of just wanting Brexit 'over and done with'. The trouble being the fallacy that no deal would mean Brexit would be done on 31st Oct.

    It quite simply won't be, and therein lies yet another backlash when the reality of that becomes apparent if we do indeed no deal.
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LonelyTiredandLow · 24/06/2019 17:18

The more I think on it the more I feel DC should have saved £ on the Remain leaflets - maybe run some advertisements saying "Britain is Great - don't be ashamed of your country!" and left everything up to the Leave side to say why they were unhappy. It would show their nationalism up and show how unpatriotic the whole shitshow was going to be. As soon as they all began telling the public how they saw different versions of Brexit, or what it could be, it would have been clear there was no one vision. DC and Remain did them a favour by pointing out the pitfalls just enabling them to deny and say "it won't be that, that's for sure!"

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 17:19

In one of BJ's videos, he proudly proclaims that he is the only one who stands up for bankers Hmm

Does he really represent what Leavers were voting for ?

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 17:23

red It is the great fallacy of a "clean break Brexit"

which does not in any way solve the Brexit deadlock,
but is a great soundbite to those who just want all the complicated trade / transport / agency / certification problems to go away

  • in reality, only Remain would do that
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Peregrina · 24/06/2019 17:29

Apologies to LouiseCollins if it wasn't. I certainly saw someone give that answer a couple of weeks back, (and about three threads ago, with the speed they are moving).

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LouiseCollins28 · 24/06/2019 17:30

Agree with all of your last post Red re the makeup of the "no deal" cohort. I do think attitudes are hardening on all sides though I'd hope nihilist Remainers are few in number. Overall, I'd put this down largely to frustration that 3 years on from the referendum result being declared we are seemingly little nearer to leaving.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 17:31

Welcome back, louise Smile
I'm glad you returned

Max Hastings: I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

There is room for debate about whether he is a scoundrel or mere rogue, but not much about his moral bankruptcy, rooted in a contempt for truth.
....
“We know plenty about your personal life that you would not like to read in the Spectator,”
the then editor of the magazine told the BBC’s chairman, while demanding he order the broadcaster to lay off his own dalliances.

Bland told me he replied:
“Boris, think about what you have just said. There is a word for it, and it is not a pretty one.”

He said Johnson blustered into retreat,
but in my own files I have handwritten notes from our possible next prime minister, threatening dire consequences in print if I continued to criticise him.

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LouiseCollins28 · 24/06/2019 17:32

No probs, Peregrina, I did do a "flounce" of sorts last week I'll admit to that, but "I just want to leave" posts aren't really my style.

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LouiseCollins28 · 24/06/2019 17:36

thanks Bigchoc. I read that article earlier one, and one very similar within the last few days. A version might have appeared on conservativehome or somewhere before the Guardian? Pretty damning stuff from Max Hastings.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 17:41

With 40C heat here, I'm likely to be erratic and flounce any time !

< drips sweat and melted 🍫🍫 on thread >

Sam Coates Sky@SamCoatesSky


Tory MPs told to be on three line whip w/c July 22 inc Thur July 25,

presumably in case of vote of no confidence

< obvious precaution, after Chief Whip warning that BJ may only be PM for 1 day - if so, fantastic future exam question ! >

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