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Brexit

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 10:47

Do you remember when politics was boring?

This week we have had a Tory MP recalled, a Tory MP caught on film appearing to assault a protester and our likely Tory prime minister caught on tape having a serious row with his girlfriend which resulted in the police being called.

This is a government with a majority of 3 (with the DUP).

There are apparently 100 MPs who are not on board with no deal, but its not clear how far they will go to try and stop this. We do have Dominic Grieve stating that if Johnson is elected leader he will not become PM as he will not have the confidence of the house and can not go to the Queen to say he has. He has recently said he would resign the Tory Whip if necessary, which he has not previously said. The government has only to lose 2 more MPs for it to lose its majority...

It is important to remember that until Johnson goes to the Queen, May remains PM and retains the powers of the office. Could he become leader but not PM?

This crisis would most likely lead to a GE. The only real question would be over the timing over this. Would it be immediate or strung out over the summer? At this point this does look highly likely before October.

If the Tory moderates get their way, then the ERG hardliners hit back and do the same thing even with the looming threat of the Brexit Party or a Remain surge.

Its hard to see how we AVOID Brenda from Bristol being tracked down for a rent-a-quote. And there is a strong possibility of another Tory Leadership Election before the year is out, under several scenarios.

Meanwhile the EU Brexit Team has largely broken up, with most of its lead players having new personal priorities with internal EU elections. Our biggest ally in Tusk will no longer be there to protect us, so EU politics post 31st October could look quite different, and less favourable, to the UK.

Whilst the talk around parliament from seems to indicate that the UK will look for another extension (and this includes from Camp Johnson), this is very inward looking. At some point there needs to be a wakeup call that the EU want us out, and will be prepared to force us to no deal whether we like it or not.

Equally the idea that we could have a PV is also dependant now on EU good will, as we've faffed about for so long with Tory Brats. And relies on the EU still being keen on another referendum. Will this come to a head with the EU saying no and shattering the hopes of the other side of the house?

At this point, what happens with the Withdrawal Agreement? The idea that the withdrawal agreement is dead isn't quite as clear cut as you might think. If its a choice in parliament on the very last day of No Deal v the Withdrawal Agreement what will they do? Will they recognise the moment? Certainly I think there are a few opposition MPs who HAVE started to notice this is a possibility this time around. Its still largely unspoken though. No one wants to acknowledge political reality.

We still haven't hit the wall of reality. We avoided in March. But its still there and no going away.

I think there are two things we can count on over the next few weeks; more outrage and chaos and a slow dawning of the realisation that May was dreadful, but it really could be worse.

OP posts:
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yolofish · 24/06/2019 16:02

sliding in, sliding back out again. My Revoke unicorn is waiting outside, stamping his pretty little feet.

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howabout · 24/06/2019 16:02

"Which of the following best describes your stance towards Brexit?"

39% ~ Supportive of a Brexit where the UK has a clear break from the EU
39% ~ Supportive of remaining in the EU
13% ~ Supportive of a Brexit where the UK is closely aligned with the EU

Via Opinium 19-20 June

According to BojoBeComing (twitter handle for the confused): "The country wants to LEAVE by 60% to 40% and people who want to LEAVE want a clean break by 75% to 25%. If people followed the polls then they'd know that this has been more or less consistent for months, but clean break is up by 10-15% from before March and EU elections."

Also see Prof Curtice's latest blog.

whatukthinks.org/eu/three-years-on-still-divided/

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Peregrina · 24/06/2019 16:04

Going back 2 years, there was a lot of people saying "I just want to Leave the EU" as an answer to any question about the details.

I think you only need go back a couple of weeks. Wasn't it LouiseCollins who in answer to what sort of Brexit do you envisage, came up with the I just want to Leave answer? Followed by a flounce.

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 16:07

DGR - the data tables are linked to at the bottom of this page www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-19th-june-2019/ Can't link you directly to the data tables as they open in Excel.

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ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 24/06/2019 16:07

I But even then, any attempt to winkle more detail than "take back control" was getting howls of "bias !!!!!" from the media^

That may be true DRG but at least we would be able to actually point to a Brexit plan and point out it doesn’t resemble reality.

All we told at the moment is “I know what I voted for” normally whilst refusing to explain what this is

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 16:08

prettybird

TX

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Iambuffy · 24/06/2019 16:14

Soverienity!
Taking back control!
Brexit means Brexit!
Make America great again!

Yadda fucking yadda....

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LouiseCollins28 · 24/06/2019 16:15

Doesn't sound like something I would have posted, no.

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Iambuffy · 24/06/2019 16:15

(Yes that's really how they spell sovereignty on the fb leave group in my town...)

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 16:16

That may be true DRG but at least we would be able to actually point to a Brexit plan and point out it doesn’t resemble reality.

Except that would have meant that:

All we told at the moment is “I know what I voted for” normally whilst refusing to explain what this is

could not be the SOP post-referendum. Which it is.

Analogies abound, but it's hard not to feel as though you are driving around the M25 with a disparate bunch of mates and mates of mates with the aim of "leaving London" but every single junction being discounted for one reason or another. Now in real life assuming you started at Dartford and are now approaching it for the second time (?) you'd sack the lot off and stay in London as they clearly haven't got a fucking clue.

Why do I feel like we are going to have another tour of the M25 of European politics: Brexit ? Similarities being an eye-watering cost, and going around in circles.

No wonder the French have started calling it "La Périphérique Politique" ....

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 16:18

There is something a bit surreal to being expected to provide competent, thought out, verifiable and truthful 'discussion items' on what is essentially a women's chat forum whereas the two candidates for the PM job are allowed to spout anything that comes into their heads.

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howabout · 24/06/2019 16:20

Similar YouGov polling:

Brexit preferences if a deal has not been approved by October 31st:

44% ~ Leave without a deal
23% ~ Cancel Brexit
15% ~ Delay Brexit to hold a 2nd referendum
7% ~ Delay Brexit to provide more time to negotiate an acceptable deal
11% ~ Don't Know

Via @YouGov, 13-14 June

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 16:20

{"La Périphérique Politique"}
Serge Danot, eat your heart out.

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 16:22

Let me be clear (as BigChoc pointed out): the percentages I quoted of those who preferred Parliament to "No Deal" to "Delay and PV" were only given those 2 choices Hmm

In the table where they were asked their personal opinions, 39% were supportive of remaining in the EU (43% FT, 41% PT, 30% Retired and 39% unemployed), 39% wanted a clean break (34% FT, 36% PT, 55% retired and 26% unemployed), 13% wanted a Brexit where the UK is closely aligned with the EU # and 9% didn't know.

So even on the personal opinions (as opposed to "What the government/parliament should do), the negative views about the UK's ongoing relationship with the EU are being driven by the retired Hmm

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:23

howabout You've been massively distorting facts, which isn't your usual standard Hmm

Quoting 48% in favour of No Deal is meaningless when no Remain option was allowed
I stated that the only Remain vs Leave was with the WA

  • the poll should have adde a question for Remain vs No Deal - which to date also has Remain winning


In fact, since about 2017, every head to head poll of Remain vs a single Leave option has Remain winning

"I see we agree that Art 50 process is not necessary." Hmm

Complete distorton of what I said, which was "Leaving without A50 leaves the UK with the same problems "

It not only doesn't avoid the problems such as the backstop
it would also bring additional problems, in that there is a treaty exit mechanism, A50, but the UK chose not to use it

The EU might even be able to go to court over that - or at the least, it would not bother to do any more than dump the same WA terms on the table, as preconditions if the UK wants a trade deal
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howabout · 24/06/2019 16:25

There is something a bit surreal to being expected to provide competent, thought out, verifiable and truthful 'discussion items' on what is essentially a women's chat forum

That comment is right up there with the twitteratti wondering what is the male faminist response to your GF shouting and roaring at you for having spilt red wine over the furnishings - the consensus answers were go down the pub or get your neighbour to phone the police to calm her down. Shock DD3 (age 7) reckons you say you are very very sorry and do your best to clean up the mess - she and her Dad have form.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:27

What we can be sure of, is that no PV will have 5 or 6 options

A PV would only be justified to resolve a deadlocked HoC, which requires one option to gain a majority of votes cast

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howabout · 24/06/2019 16:28

All of this is discussion is opinion not fact - especially if the topic under discussion is opinion polls. Grin Brew

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 16:30

Let me be clear (as BigChoc pointed out): the percentages I quoted of those who preferred Parliament to "No Deal" to "Delay and PV" were only given those 2 choices

Was that choice a forced choice in the survey process ?

I've noted all too frequently YouGovs SOP of asking a question with answer A or B or "Don't know" which has to be completed before proceeding (and therefore logging that individual survey as "completed").

That would deliver a 100% response rate for the question, along with a completely meaningless "result" to be pored over by the paymaster.

Ultimately though, I really have to agree with every politician I have ever heard since I was old enough to realise Harold Wilson resigning was a Big Thing. The only poll that counts is the General Election. (Or a legitimate referendum).

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 16:30

{prettybird Mon 24-Jun-19 16:22:56

Let me be clear}

Careful chuck, Theresa is getting to you!

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TheElementsSong · 24/06/2019 16:35

I've noted all too frequently YouGovs SOP of asking a question with answer A or B or "Don't know"

I had exactly that, in a YouGov this weekend, which was whether Bozo or C/Hunt or Don't Know would be a better Prime Minister. If there had been a fourth option (something like "I'd rather wash my eyes with birds-eye chillis") I suspect that would have won. But instead, we know there will soon be a published result showing that x% of the public support one of those fuckers as PM.

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RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 16:37

Charlie Sykes @ skyescharlie
All politics explained in one chart.

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun
OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 16:38

It is pathetic that even during his leadership campaign, BJ doesn't have the self-control to avoid a row that results in the police being called
Even if all his neighbours hate him - illegal parking or politics - ridiculous to give them the opportunity

No other candidate had this kind of incident, in any party leadership contest I can remember
It is when they are on their very best behaviour

It reached the German news and - as I posted - the French papers too
People were laughing in my gym and at work today, asking me what I thought !

Putin (!) was earlier mocking the whole idea of such a small % of the country choosing the PM

All adds to the international opinion of the UK as a country stuck in farce / silly arse mode.

btw, Personally, I would always phone the police if I were concerned for a neighbour, adult or child

e.g. noone answering the door after a row with screaming and breaking crockery

After reading umpteen MN threads I would also record the row,
so the police could listen if they wanted, or to cover myself in case the neighbours claimed I had invented it

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MargoLovebutter · 24/06/2019 16:40

arf @RedToothBrush - I think that should probably apply to life generally not just politics!

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 16:41

Serge Danot, eat your heart out.

Just had a misty childhood reminisce about The Magic Roundabout ... Brian and Douglas PA relationship ... Ermintrude. One of my best loved early books was a story about The Magic Roundabout going on holiday to Scotland ...

Big up for the died far too young Eric Thompson ....

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun
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