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Brexit

Westministenders: The start of our fourth year of fun

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/06/2019 10:47

Do you remember when politics was boring?

This week we have had a Tory MP recalled, a Tory MP caught on film appearing to assault a protester and our likely Tory prime minister caught on tape having a serious row with his girlfriend which resulted in the police being called.

This is a government with a majority of 3 (with the DUP).

There are apparently 100 MPs who are not on board with no deal, but its not clear how far they will go to try and stop this. We do have Dominic Grieve stating that if Johnson is elected leader he will not become PM as he will not have the confidence of the house and can not go to the Queen to say he has. He has recently said he would resign the Tory Whip if necessary, which he has not previously said. The government has only to lose 2 more MPs for it to lose its majority...

It is important to remember that until Johnson goes to the Queen, May remains PM and retains the powers of the office. Could he become leader but not PM?

This crisis would most likely lead to a GE. The only real question would be over the timing over this. Would it be immediate or strung out over the summer? At this point this does look highly likely before October.

If the Tory moderates get their way, then the ERG hardliners hit back and do the same thing even with the looming threat of the Brexit Party or a Remain surge.

Its hard to see how we AVOID Brenda from Bristol being tracked down for a rent-a-quote. And there is a strong possibility of another Tory Leadership Election before the year is out, under several scenarios.

Meanwhile the EU Brexit Team has largely broken up, with most of its lead players having new personal priorities with internal EU elections. Our biggest ally in Tusk will no longer be there to protect us, so EU politics post 31st October could look quite different, and less favourable, to the UK.

Whilst the talk around parliament from seems to indicate that the UK will look for another extension (and this includes from Camp Johnson), this is very inward looking. At some point there needs to be a wakeup call that the EU want us out, and will be prepared to force us to no deal whether we like it or not.

Equally the idea that we could have a PV is also dependant now on EU good will, as we've faffed about for so long with Tory Brats. And relies on the EU still being keen on another referendum. Will this come to a head with the EU saying no and shattering the hopes of the other side of the house?

At this point, what happens with the Withdrawal Agreement? The idea that the withdrawal agreement is dead isn't quite as clear cut as you might think. If its a choice in parliament on the very last day of No Deal v the Withdrawal Agreement what will they do? Will they recognise the moment? Certainly I think there are a few opposition MPs who HAVE started to notice this is a possibility this time around. Its still largely unspoken though. No one wants to acknowledge political reality.

We still haven't hit the wall of reality. We avoided in March. But its still there and no going away.

I think there are two things we can count on over the next few weeks; more outrage and chaos and a slow dawning of the realisation that May was dreadful, but it really could be worse.

OP posts:
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prettybird · 24/06/2019 14:08

A majority of 2 means that only one person needs to cross the floor and/or go against the whip for Parliament to be deadlocked. Shock

....which puts the Speaker back into the casting vote role! Shock

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 14:09

grannycake

sounds like your MP and mine are on the same page (if not Whatsapp group Grin)

The real question is not how they will vote in a possible revote on the WA, but how they would campaign in a GE ? Especially if Corbyn decides that Labour have to "respect the referendum" even then ? Because For all their fine words now, I won't vote for a candidate who is standing for a party where my vote can be considered in any way to be a vote for Brexit. Which is what voting Labour in 2017 was taken to mean (the "80% of Britain voted for Brexit" bollocks).

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 14:10

Interesting that you are happy to round on me for suggesting that the EU would change a treaty to prevent itself being shafted again by a 'leaving' country, but happy to put up proposals, wonderful that they may be, are the sparkliest of unicorns while the UK is about to get a PM that either can't keep his trousers on, or another that has some rather serious flaws.
There seems to be a strong theme of 'hate' towards Hunt, but you don't have to be popular to be the 'best' for the UK. Having your leg amputated to prevent the spread of gangrene is hardly a 'popular' choice.

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Iambuffy · 24/06/2019 14:11

Pmk

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 14:16

Would Hunt pander to the ERG or is he strong enough to tell them to 'do one'?
I forget if Hunt actually comes under the ERG umbrella and am rapidly losing the will to be that interested.

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Motheroffourdragons · 24/06/2019 14:17

The difference is leclerc - we are all saying the same thing - that while we have the government that we do or are about to have then we recognise that our solutions are not going to happen, although we believe that they are decent alternatives to what we have now.

You state things as if they were a fait accompli and then get annoyed when you're called out on them.

But it is a public forum and we are all entitled to our opinions. And if we state facts we should link to the source. So please do link your source to the statement that the EU will change its rules to stop us reinvoking and I will crawl back under my stone with an apology.

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DGRossetti · 24/06/2019 14:20

The problem is we have spent the past 3 years being told to prepare for a Boris premiership, all else has been excluded.

The one thing that would differentiate Hunt from Boris is a complete lack of expectation Hmm Which would be exacerbated if Boris continues to duck meeting Hunt in TV hustings.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 14:30

Thanks, red 💐

"There are apparently 100 MPs who are not on board with no deal,"

That's Tory MPs, I presume, because a lot of Labour, LDem, SNP, Plaid etc are certainly opposed to ND

"If its a choice in parliament on the very last day of No Deal v the Withdrawal Agreement what will they do?

That's what I wonder and why I disagree that the WA 100% can't pass before Brexit

However, BJ or Hunt would probably decide that they and the Tory party can survive a No Deal crash - that they'll blame everyone else for - more easily than it will avoid tearing itself apart if they "give in" to the EU

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prettybird · 24/06/2019 14:33

I am quite sure (as I would think are others on here Wink) that the EU will indeed be looking at clarifying/amending/adjusting Article 50 in the next iteration of the EU Treaty to ensure that the clusterfuck of the UK's "negotiation" to leave and its ability to revoke right up until the last possible minute cannot happen again.

However, unless and until that new treaty is signed, I don't see how the EU would be able to stop the UK (or any other country, if they were to also want to commit economic suicide) from invoking and revoking A50 ad nauseum - even though it could make life difficult and choose to be less and less amenable in its negotiations Hmm

As an aside, I wonder which European city the next treaty would be named after? We've had Paris, Rome, Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice, Lisbon..... I wonder if the next one might be Dublin? Wink

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MargoLovebutter · 24/06/2019 14:34

Ah, the car crash that keeps on going!

I'm sure great books will be written about this time in British politics. It is the stuff that politics degree essays are made of.

"Did the self-combustion of the Conservative Party from 2016 onwards lead to the ultimate post-war destruction of the UK, or was it inevitable? Discuss"

"How did the continued existence of the privileged, white, male political elite contribute to the social and political crisis that led to the result of the Brexit vote in 2016?"

"Did political ineptitude finally reach its zenith in the Tory leadership contest of 2019?"

"How did the absolute absence of a realistic opposition party contribute to the ongoing post-Brexit vote chaos from June 2016 to 20XX?"

Just having a bit of fun with those essay titles, because the reality depresses me so much.

The Hunt vs Johnson campaign for head of house is embarrassing. I keep on wondering how the fuck we got here. Can't see how either of them can steer our rudderless ship through the Brexit maelstrom. Same old shit coming out of their mouths, as far as I can tell. Still hoping for some miraculous alternative deal to appear that will be the answer to everyone's prayers. The only problem is everyone is praying for different things.

Happy days. Maybe Iran and the USA will blow us all up and we won't have to worry about any of this shit anymore.

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derxa · 24/06/2019 14:35

.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 14:42

mother, leclerc Any Lisbon treaty change to limit Invoke / Recoke would take years to negotiate
and would have to be agreed unanimously by all members, which would take years

The UK wouldn't be be only member (if still in the UK !) to oppose making it difficult to Leave

  • it would be unanimously vetoed if anyone would daft enough to propise it


However, irrelevant anyway, as the proposal would be brought to the ECJ, who would rule it out as being coercive
They've indicated with their Revoke decision that they won't accept EU members being restricted like this

Contrary to popular belief, if a member wants to Leave, the EU is much better off letting them

However, the ECJ said a Revoke must be "sincere"
So invoking might have to wait a few years, but a "cunning plan Mk II" would take at least that, anyway
A new referendum, with younger demographics might well not even return Leave
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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 14:42

adequatefood Any rerun would still have to cope with the backstop

It has been repeated often here (Germany) and probably in Brussels too, that if the UK revokes and then invokes later,
te EU will not negotiate again;
they'll just present basically the same WA, with backstop, but with the exit bill and citizens rights updated

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howabout · 24/06/2019 14:47

"If the House of Commons cannot agree on a deal, which of the following do you think we should do?"

48% ~ Leave the EU with ‘no deal’
40% ~ Delay Brexit and hold a public vote on what to do next
12% ~ Don't know / not sure

Via @OpiniumResearch, 19-20 June

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howabout · 24/06/2019 14:51

I doubt the UK would choose to use the Art 50 process again. Were it to Revoke with the intention of Leaving eventually I would anticipate it lobbying on the unfitness for purpose of Art 50 and preparing to Leave without it. Unlike the WA there is no lock-in on EU membership AFAIK (Art 50 was supposed to provide a managed glide path for both sides Wink)

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Peregrina · 24/06/2019 14:53

I'm sure great books will be written about this time in British politics. It is the stuff that politics degree essays are made of.

I hope that MN has kept all these threads - they could provide a valuable source of material as to how predominantly Remainers thought, and how this changed over time.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 14:56

Really, howabout Hmm The Remain option was not included in that particular question, so that poll is meaningless

In another question in the same survey, same sample of voters, WA vs Remain, Remain won
(They didn't do a straight Remain vs No Deal, afaik)

"If there was a referendum tomorrow with the option of accepting the government’s Brexit agreement or remaining in the EU, which would you support?"

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 14:56

{The difference is leclerc - we are all saying the same thing}

Everybody is not saying the same thing. There are many things that are common however so if push came to shove a consensus probably could be obtained.
Everyone here is guessing and although some things may come to pass, many won't. Despite the EP being regarded as sluggish and out of touch, the possibility of the Brexit shitshow expanding to other countries or be repeated will have been thought about. The dangers of far right influence are probably greater from other EU members rather than the UK at present, hence the interest in Farage and his connections other than UKIP.
While it would be nice to be 'wrong' there are some distinct 'rodent' type smells around the whole of Brexit and the UK may not be the epicentre.

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BackInTime · 24/06/2019 14:59

@guyverhofstadt
3h3 hours ago
More
Worrying that the potential PM of a powerful European nation would have anything to do with Steve Bannon; a man who supports far-right parties & wishes to destroy the European Union.


The relationship with Bannon worries me far more than the state of of the future PMs personal life.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 15:00

howabout Leaving without A50 leaves the UK with the same problems:

The EU will have the same preconditions before it agrees a future trade deal or a transition period

They will include the backstop and the updated WA

(Unless the UK waits until Irish Reunification, in which case it can leave as easily as any other member except Ireland)

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1tisILeClerc · 24/06/2019 15:00

{Same old shit coming out of their mouths, as far as I can tell. Still hoping for some miraculous alternative deal to appear that will be the answer to everyone's prayers. }

With the obvious observation is that there is no real plan to actually improve the lives of the UK population.

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Peregrina · 24/06/2019 15:01

The massive downfall in that of course is whether anything can be achieved in 2 years of cross party talks when we've had 3 years and no one is any wiser.

It could be if the will was there. Think back to the wartime coalition and at least one major piece of legislation in the 1944 Education Act was passed. This was before the war was won, although I think by then we realised the tide had turned in our favour.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 15:02

The ERG have conceded that UK can NOT use GATT Article 24 without the EU agreeing too

e.g. IDS and David Campbell Bannerman:

"if the UK and EU go to the WTO jointly and say that we have agreed to move to a full and comprehensive Free Trade Agreement (what we term "SuperCanada" – that is better than the EU-Canada FTA)
– that keeps tariffs at zero with no real change to other members,

the WTO is happy to allow us a period of time to keep tariffs and quotas at preferential rates."

They omit the fact that if the UK just No Deals,
then at least until the UK signs up to the EU precondittions - backstop, exit bill, expat rights -
the EU will not enable the UK to use A24

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Icantreachthepretzels · 24/06/2019 15:02

These are huge problems though with the current government and opposition as we have already had 3 years during which time nothing has happened.

I don't hold out much hope for it

I have absolutely no problem with the idea of revoking on the promise that we can revisit the idea once they have come up with a plan ... only for them to never come up with a plan Grin

And it shouldn't be for the government to design - they have already wasted three years on this shit. The onus should be entirely on the MPs and their advisors who want it. If they want it - they can design it (in their own time - not taking away from parliamentary attendance or constituency time) - and if it's viable, we'll all vote for it. But if they can't be bothered to design it - then they can't have it.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/06/2019 15:05

peregrina The cross-party agreement would have to include a backstop, even if the end goal is Norway++

Maybe after some years discussion, the parties will accept that
the backstop is only a problem if the UK at any stage decides on a trade deal which would require an Irish goods border

Otherwise, it's just an insurance policy that will never need to be used

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