Question for Remainers

[7salmonswimming]

Can you please tell me why you want to Remain?

Discourse is charged right now, there’s a lot of fact and non-fact swirling around. So apart from the single market and trade benefits (which I think are massive but probably misunderstood by most, because there’s so much detail), why do you want to Remain? Thinking back to when you cast your vote: fear of change? Feel European? Ease of travel? Married to an EU citizen?

We hear a lot of questioning of Brexiters’ motives, not much about

Full disclosure: I don’t live in the UK. I think what’s happening in the EU augers well for what is happening elsewhere in the world.

[7salmonswimming]

Thank you for all the replies. They seem to be an interesting mix of the practical, self-interest, pragmatic, economic - but also the politically philosophical. I asked this morning because I’d just read something about the increasingly open federalism the EU elite are now talking about in open (Angela Merkel’s European army). It strikes me as being totally at odds with the British psyche - I can’t see the Brits being happy as part of a greater whole in that way. Maybe I’m wrong (or maybe not, given the referendum result ).

I live in the USA, and I’m ethnically from another federation. Neither of them is perfect, but both have at least one idea or value that unites them and keeps the union whole. I don’t see what that is amongst the 27 EU nations: different religions, different languages, different politics, different races, different histories.... I’m not convinced it could ever work as a harmonious union, a union with a single army, no borders, a single currency, single market, single tax regime etc. I don’t know.

Thank you for the answers though, they’re very interesting.

[Kezzie200]

I think the EU will need to spend on defence as currently they are in NATO because of us and our military spend. Without being able to add us to the equation, they fall short, so need to do something.

I might be wrong - im not an expert - but if Im right it is ironic that another thing leave say "told you so" wouldn't be on the cards if we were remaining.

[HopelesslydevotedtoGu]

I think climate change will be the major challenge for our children's generation and I think belonging to larger cooperative bodies that look beyond the self-interest of individual nations is the way to mitigate environmental damage.

I imagine the UK will choose to step even further backwards on environmental matters if they have the chance.

[bellinisurge]

I'm not a federalist, op but given the cavernous divide in the US between the coastal states and the rest of the US, I'm not sure you can consider it a union of harmony.
Happy Thanksgiving.

[frumpety]

7salmon it is interesting that you call the idea of a European army, Merkel's, I wonder where you got that idea ?. The EU already has a European common security and defence policy so we are already used to working collaboratively in these areas, although I am not sure that the average UK citizen is aware of how much or how often.

[frumpety]

Outside of the EU, our fate would be in the hands of those nations who have only an interest in their own prosperity, with little regard for their neighbours.

[Mistigri]

it is interesting that you call the idea of a European army, Merkel's

It's revealing, I think. Merkel is to the European alt-right what Hillary Clinton is to the American alt-right ;)

[Tanith]

Peace is the common ideal that has kept the European Union united.

We have seen two devastating World Wars in Europe. We do not want to see a third.

[Mistigri]

Much of what is now the EU has common cultural traditions that stretch back more than 2000 years - a time when the US was populated by people who originally crossed into the Americas from Asia via the Siberian land bridge. I doubt very much that salmon feels s/he has much in common with them.

Many countries have more than one language in widespread daily use - this is true of both China and the USA, to give two obvious examples.

I'm also bemused/amused by the idea that anyone from the US thinks that the EU might be divided by race and history when the US isn't ... that strikes me as stunningly tone deaf even from someone who consumes their information from alt-right sites (the Merkel/EU army thing is a dead giveaway).

[Peregrina]

I can never see why people get up in arms (pardon the pun) about an EU Army, when they don't bat an eyelid about NATO.

given the referendum result
Where roughly one quarter of the population wanted to leave the EU, one quarter didn't, another quarter expressed no opinion and the last quarter were unable to vote - some of these who had been living, working and paying taxes in this country for many years.
Contrast that with the 1975 Referendum where there was a convincing majority for staying in.
As for 'different religions' - some leavers on these threads criticise the EU because it's a predominantly Christian club - which is no surprise, because most of Europe adopted Christianity centuries ago. The split if any is N Europe being predominantly Protestant, and S Europe Catholic, but they are still the same religion.
'different races' again we are accused by some of being a white persons' club.
'different histories' - no, if you study European history, we have very much of a common history, admittedly spending our time fighting each other.
'languages' - well India manages with numerous languages.

If you read our predominantly right wing media, you will get a distorted picture - this thread should have begun to disabuse you of it.

BTW when people go on about the 'special relationship' the UK has with the USA, I for one am not the only one who thinks that a load of nonsense, but I wonder if it came about because Churchill had an American mother, so personally had a different perspective.

[Peregrina]

Something of a cross post with you there Mistigri.

[Daddybegood]

OP. The US and 29 other countries are currently members of NATO which is an intergovernmental military alliance. This was not set up to federalise those sovereign governments but as a pact against a number of post war threats.
Trump has stated that he wants less reliance on NATO from US funding, and threatened to withdraw from it, as he has the UN, the WTO etc...while at the same time hugely increasing US military domestic spend. He has said countries in Europe need to spend more...i agree with the tango shitgibbon for once.
The EU has concluded logically that the current major threats facing their countries don't stop at border crossings e.g cyberwarfare, information distortion, the rise of right wing nationalistic militia and islamic terrorism. Weapons are no longer blasted between trenches 200 yards from each other and nuclear and ballistic missiles are now 'intercontinental.'
If we let an increasingly belligerent US administration, who describe themselves as 'trade warriors' or a power hungry Putin who is willing to use chemical weapons on British soil (not to mention set up a bot outsideinthegarden in Kiev to bombard mumsnet with propaganda every 15 seconds) or a rocket man with his own toys to threaten us, we could really regret it.
Individually the 27/28 intergovernmental sovereign governments of the EU do not wish to federalise and cannot afford to pursue a military spend comparative to the US or Russia, it would be wasteful and duplicative to do so...but we can collaborate with each other to focus our spending on mutual intelligence and strategic objectives...allowing those sovereign governments to spend on other priorities e.g. the NHS.
Where we do collaborate with the EU e.g euratom (nucleur energy) erasmus (education and training), environmental protections etc...the EU are the world leaders that benefits EU citizens enormously.....please read up about these benefits. The people/politicians/agencies that set these up aren't 'elites' as you provocatively describe them....they don't ride in gold plated lifts, threaten their allies and enemies in equal measure, make fortunes from collapsing the currencies and economies e.g. like brexit is/will do, impose tarriffs to threaten world trade and use fake news to spread populist, nationalistic (fascist/racist) propoganda that scapegoats immigrants and demonizes those on benefits but I suspect the article you read (probably funded by Robert Mercer) has these subplots that have appealed to something in you.
The EU has always been a collaboration of proud, independent, sovereign, patriotic (nb not nationslistic) nation states and will continue to be so, a force for good and we will be a great deal poorer for leaving it

[Talkinpeece]

7Salmon
As a Native New Yorker I do not feel I have much in common with people in the Bible Belt or in the Michigan Militia or in the gangs in south LA
but we are all American.

Europe is a big place. Its people do not have to think the same to know they are better off together.
The USA is a big place. Its people do not have to think the same to know they are better off together.

[Tanith]

Peregrina: "I can never see why people get up in arms (pardon the pun) about an EU Army, when they don't bat an eyelid about NATO."

I can! It's been doing the rounds in US churches for years and has filtered across to us. They claim it's the start of the Apocalypse - the Second Coming as predicted in the Revelation.

I've been handed tracts by my Baptist neighbours referring to this, and I used to see them in religious bookshops in the 80s.
One I saw even referred, in all seriousness, to the poem in the Omen about "When the Jews return to Zion and a comet rips the sky" as a centuries old prophesy!
No, it's actually a decades old piece of doggerel written by the scriptwriters of a horror film that has been appropriated to convince the hard of thinking on both sides of the Atlantic. I expect the writer would be both gratified and incredulous to hear it quoted as genuine.

[1tisILeClerc]

European countries have their own armies anyway, and the main object of a European army is to integrate them more than at present. The EU is, by definition, a Union so having joint leadership is a logical progression. Since aggressors to the EU are most likely to be outside the union (unless the union truly breaks up) having troops who work together and appreciate each others differences can only be a good thing. As long as disagreements come down to which country brews the best beer things should be fine.
WW1 and 2 brought troops from all across the world together and both Muslims, Christians and others died together. As the poignant war cemeteries across Northern France and Belgium (and elsewhere) highlight, everyone lost.

[xebobfromUS]

Well, I'm not British and I am a guy though I did help raise my nieces and nephews and that was enough kiddie stuff for me.

Quite frankly Brexit in all it's forms is just a horrible idea. If you follow Wall Street as I do then you learn that it doesn't take much to either spook or excite the stock market.

Unless somehow the U.K. manages to remain in the E.U. , I don't see how it avoids a financial and social catastrophe. We do live in a very interconnected world and if the U.K. goes down then it has the real potential to take other countries down with it.

Financial institutions can indeed be reasonably healthy and strong but if a belief gets generated that say a certain institution is not, then customers may begin to pull their money out, and other financial institutions may refuse to do business with them because of all the rumors and then that institution is really in trouble.

Then other financial institutions begin to be doubted and the same thing begins to occur with them. From what I have read that is what happened to Lehman Brothers ( though they were in a weak but survivable position with regard to sub-prime loans ) . Markets tend to be emotional and not rational.

It's not that hard for me to see that businesses begin to collapse post-brexit ( depending on it's exact nature ), taking U.K. banks and other financial institutions down with them ( because this financial crises is real and not based on rumors or speculation ) and this spreading to the rest of Europe and then meandering and affecting the U.S.

If statements from large businesses and organizations seemed to be measured and a bit tame about the potential impacts, well they have to be from a practical, strategic, and perhaps legal standpoint.

There is what they can say they think is going to happen ( a recession with a certain shrinkage of economic output ) and then what they think is really going to happen ( something really. really horrible ) which is why they are either pulling out or making plans to pull out.

I watched Theresa May in the House of Commons and there was quite a cheer when she mentioned the possibility of no Brexit at all and I had to cheer as well, though she made it sound like that would be a sad thing.

It's one thing to have to endure misery that is visited upon oneself, it's another thing to invite it.

[Tanith]

It's taken 2 years to cobble together a Withdrawal Agreement that isn't even agreed yet. How quickly do they think an EU Army would take to make any decision about mobilising for a war??

[ladybee28]

70 years of post war peace under threat.

This.

And under all the policies and specifics, it's the same for me as everything else in life; collaborating, supporting, working together is never perfect sailing – there will always be mistakes and arguments – but it's almost always better (both practically and emotionally) than going it alone.

[1tisILeClerc]

xebobfromUS
Thanks for an interesting 'outside' (but connected) view.
It is surprising that much of lifer has similarities to the game of Jenga (the blocks you stack up then remove from the bottom) in that we seem to go upwards then someone pulls an important brick from the bottom of the pile.

I can only hope that a 'European army' is actually nearer together than is disclosed, simply because any aggression needs swift reaction.
Various forces from the EU and USA are actually engaged in many places that don't often hit the headlines. There are many in the Sahara region for example.

[BollocksToBrexit]

I live in the USA, and I’m ethnically from another federation. Neither of them is perfect, but both have at least one idea or value that unites them and keeps the union whole. I don’t see what that is amongst the 27 EU nations: different religions, different languages, different politics, different races, different histories.... I’m not convinced it could ever work as a harmonious union, a union with a single army, no borders, a single currency, single market, single tax regime etc. I don’t know.

It's funny that you mention different languages. Most people within the EU have English as a second language. In the EU country I live in everybody speaks it perfectly well. My husband works on EU science projects and all the work is done in English. I wonder how this will change post brexit when English ceases to be an official language of the EU.

[Mistigri]

English ceases to be an official language of the EU.*
*
It won't cease to be an official language. Quite apart from its role as a common language in Europe, Ireland is not leaving the EU ...

[Peregrina]

Nor is Malta leaving the EU which has English as one of its official languages.

[BollocksToBrexit]

When a country joins the EU it registers 1 language as its official language for EU purposes. The UK is the only EU country to officially use English. Ireland registered with Irish as its official language and Malta registered with Maltese. Post brexit English will not be an official language of the EU.

[BonnieF]

I was on a bus in Barcelona yesterday listening to a Spanish person, a Romanian and a German chatting among themselves. They were speaking English, of course.

For as long as the Swedes want to talk to the Poles, the Portuguese want to talk to the Greeks, the Slovaks want to talk to the Estonians, the Czechs want to talk to the French, the Finns want to talk to the Hungarians and anyone wants to talk to the Lithuanians, English will remain the language of international communication.