Finally! Why the leavers voted leave and why no ones talking about it!

[Chris1234567890]

This is at least a week overdue, but at least Janet Daly at The Telegraph has grasped the nettle......

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/if-we-dont-talk-about-immigration-now-there-will-be-hell-to-pay/

[pastygothboy]

Yes smallfox.

One thing that strikes me is how unfair it is the UK attracts such a high number of multi-millionaire Australian media magnates.

Surely that's unfair on Australia. If they stayed at home, their benevolence and wisdom could be used to benefit their home country?

[FastWindow]

And yet, and yet... We take to Europe when we have incredibly complex medical situations, which only an expert surgeon in Bratislava (say) has the expertise to perform, when the NHS won't help. Because you live in the wrong postcode.

[mathanxiety]

So the young and well educated are clearly in demand in the UK.

We realise that British people could have been getting jobs in Europe all this time, or do we?

It seems the British education system (home grown, incidentally) failed to prepare people to get jobs anywhere.

[FastWindow]

math yes.

Well educated Brits do tend to get jobs. Here, or in Europe. Ime.

Your point was?

[FabFiveFreddie]

The article does indeed get to the heart of the Leavers' vote, but not for the reasons JD thinks.

Yet again, and despite criticizing others in her opening paragraphs for doing so, JD herself is treating migrants as a commodity, a group of people, a problem, a single mass of concern. It's as though she's sitting in an ivory tower and commenting, beatifically, on what she's seeing unfold below her. Has she actually talked to any migrants themselves (guess not otherwise she would have said so)? How patronising to pontificate and attribute pseudo-liberal caring consideration to Those Less Fortunate (read rich) than us. People migrate for all sorts of reasons, wherever they migrate to and from. People leave behind all sorts of things and circumstances. Does a Kensingnton-dwelling banker relocating to Warsaw with his wife and kids for work think more carefully about the impact on his friends and family (bollocks does he spare even a passing thought for his community), than the carpenter moving from Warsaw to London (to fit a new kitchen in that self same banker's old home)? Utter nonsense.

Many many Leavers voted Leave because of people like JD: comfortable, likely London/South East based, for whom Europe is a nice place to take city breaks or maybe send their kids on a gap year, while they themselves struggle to make ends meet using whatever means they can in communities which have been decimated through decades of neglect and oversight, and for whom the Eurostar is for posh folk, Eastern Europe is so far away as to be irrelevant, and the French and Germans have fuck all impact on their daily lives. They're angry and have turned their anger on whoever is there: immigrants are flavour du jour. A few years ago it was bankers. It's only because there hasn't been a catastrophe of the sorts Paris has recently suffered that it's not "those terrorists". The real ire is against Westminster leadership after Westminster Leadership who have failed them time and time again.

[bkgirl]

Global migration is a major issue with global warming forcing whole regions to evacuate. There has to a discussion/plan to cater for these people. It cannot be seen as unacceptable. We have to think beyond Europe. Heeck even parts of Australia stand a high chance
Personally I would like to see immigration from all over, I just fear regional differences would carry over. We also need to be aware of disease control (tb is very worrying) and take the necessary action early to stop infection and generally plan to enable people to live together in harmony and safety.
This is a brilliant map - check it out
www.climatehotmap.org/

[mollie123]

the facts about immigrants and the NHS
fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-nhs-staff/
so with apoints based EU m,igration control the NHS would not 'fall apart'

[MissMargie]

I live in a rural area - it has the problem of recruiting nhs doctors. It is due to the lack of jobs for spouses (assuming they are educated to degree level), and poor schools. Discipline in schools is a real problem although not acknowledged by gov who blame the teachers. So if we improved opportunity, schools, and/or transport so the spouses could commute, we would move to solving the probs without using immigrants.

[MissMargie]

I think someone said 54000 young Latvians left to work abroad, mostly Uk. Pop of Latvia 3 million.
U.K. Pop is 60 million so the equivalent would be over a million young Brits leaving the uk in a year. And these are prob the best and brightest.........

[Oblomov16]

The article doesn't go far enough, doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know.
So, it needs to be discussed? Right, ok.
So give us something to discuss. But the author didn't. She just left us hanging......

[Valentine2]

OP
I read it.
I think this is the kind of uber philosophical "looking" agenda of the Leave campaign that failed magnificently to take into account the lack of plan for Leave.
It's all very nice and fine to worry for the poor countries getting stripped of their intelligent brains while its you in your own country getting treatment by a GP who couldn't be replaced by a local Bcoz there wasn't any fucking local who bothered to get trained for that kinda job.
And the writer absolutely ignored the non EU immigration.

[Valentine2]

marge
"So if we improved opportunity, schools, and/or transport so the spouses could commute, we would move to solving the prob"

Yeah fine. But is it not the job of UK government using our taxes?How was EU stopping UK government from doing it? Or is it those £350million again?

[Basicbrown]

Strange that the areas with the highest levels of EU migration voted in, in almost all cases.

No it's not strange at all. The areas with the highest levels of EU migration are the areas with the most jobs, where people have opportunity. The people who are doing ok were more likely to vote remain.

[Basicbrown]

And Valentine it was about immigration and the need to discuss it and the impacts on diffetent communities. The article is not about suggesting a plan

[mathanxiety]

The point is that the education system has dropped the ball when it comes to the majority of British students, and that the education system is nothing to do with the EU.

Leaving the EU does nothing for the education system. British school leavers will still be unable to find jobs, either at home or abroad.

The system as it stands assumes that a large proportion of students can simply be written off.

[Joysmum]

The article raises good points about stripping other countries of their talent, but I voted based on what I believe is best for the UK and am unconvinced others voted based on altruistic motives.

I voted leave in favour of pursuing a Norway style free trade agreement to allow us to trade globally without being held back.

I also believe immigration to be in the best interests of this country.

I keep trying to make the point that people voted (whether for leave or remain) for different reasons.

If the majority want immigration to be controlled it will be at the cost of a free trade agreement and that's the real danger to this country, not leaving the EU.

[mathanxiety]

What made you think that was what the Leave campaign was promising?

Did you ever read any Ukip campaign literature?

[Chris1234567890]

Joysmum..... Very Good point. Ill curb my enthusiasm in future

Happy to accept something Ive been banging on about........ what joysmum said.
Each to their own, (motivations) and the same applies in the remain camp.

Just going back up to my OP, I suppose my affinity with it, was the social engineering element, led by corporate globalisation. For me, it wasnt/isnt working in the UK hence my vote. Ive long argued the impact on maintaining low wages. (Sports direct? Dementia care? Minimum wage?!!! Really!!)
But yes, I agree, I didnt give that much thought to the impact on the emmigrating nations........till now.

(Gosh, for all the bile this week, havent we all learnt so much more! Sentiment Please dont reply....theres a thread for that

[JassyRadlett]

I voted leave in favour of pursuing a Norway style free trade agreement to allow us to trade globally without being held back.

Unfortunately that option is fundamentally incompatible with the promises made by the Leave campaign.

I didn't think we'd stopped talking about immigration in the last 10 days to be honest, but it's a tough world for weekend column writers who only get one go at the news agenda each week...

[smallfox1980]

So Norway style agreement.

Where we pay 95% per capita what we were before?

Where we have to implement EU regulations but have no say in them being made?

Where we have freedom of movement?

Sorry that won't wash with most of the Brexit camp.

[Bumbledumb]

Sorry that won't wash with most of the Brexit camp.

Most of the Brexit camp represents a minority of opinion in this country, so why do they get to drive the agenda?

[smallfox1980]

I simply don't know to be honest. But all of the politicians in government seem to think that a 4% majority on out means that we come out and a massive part of that vote was about immigration.

A Norway style deal is not going to happen without immigration.

[Clangersarepink]

hubris

Latvia's population has shrunk by 13% in a decade. Working population by 15%. By a strange coincidence, they joined the EU in 2004.

Lithuania's population peaked in 1991 and has been in steady decline ever since. The rate of decline has not changed since joining the EU. The population increased quickly after it was absorbed by the USSR and declined when the USSR collapsed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lithuania

If you look at the demographics of Romania, you'll see the same trend.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Romania

In fact, most (if not all) of the former Soviet countries are experiencing the same problem. Even Russia itself underwent a period of post-Soviet population shrinkage, up until very recently.

I'm not saying population loss isn't an issue that needs to be addressed, and I'm sure that the EU could do more (if the rich member states were more willing to help), but we cannot blame the EU for causing or even enabling population loss. For the people living in former Soviet states I'm sure they're mostly happier coming to the EU than Russia, which is the obvious alternative. Seeing the damaging political impact Russia has on nations like Ukraine, I'm sure countries like Romania and Lithuania are happier being in the EU.

I've used Google more in the last few weeks than ever before, trying to get to the bottom of all the claims made by both sides. There has been an awful lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

[Joysmum]

Unfortunately that option is fundamentally incompatible with the promises made by the Leave campaign

But now comes the stage where we find our way forwards.

If Remainers stand by their vote then 48% have no issue with immigration as it stands.

So actually what's required is only a fairly small minority of leave to be in favour of a Norway style free trade agreement to add to that and volla, a Norway style free trade agreement and the compromises required looks like the front runner going forwards.

So for me, it's vital that we do continue to be discussing immigration in a calm and considered way and make it obvious to whoever wants power that this is the popular choice.

Remember, the leave campaign don't hold power and Remainers have as much of a say as leavers in that.

[MoonriseKingdom]

'Brain drains' work in many ways. One of the many and complex factors in a shortage of doctors is that many young doctors are heading off to Australia (oh the irony) and NZ where working life is considered much better. This is not so much about money more about hours and feeling like the NHS/ government doesn't value junior doctors any more. We also don't train enough people. If we moved to a points based immigration scheme we would continue to need to recruit doctors (unless there was a shake up) so the drain of highly skilled workers would continue.

Leaving the EU risks a further brain drain from the EU as our top people in fields such as science may follow the EU research grants. I imagine Oxford and Cambridge will always be ok but will other universities then use the highly skilled migrant programme to make up researcher and lecturer numbers?

The idea that worries about immigration are all about looking out for the poorer countries is disingenuous.