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Brexit

What do you expect to happen after a leave vote?

38 replies

Mistigri · 10/06/2016 17:31

This isn't a partisan in-out question, it's about people's expectations of what noticeable changes they expect to see both immediate 2 year period after the referendum, and in the medium term (let's say 2-5 years).

It seems that people are getting excited in a way that suggests they expect a short term change for the better, which implies that they expect noticeable positive differences in their own lives fairly soon after the election. And others are worried because they expect significant negative changes.

So, what do you expect to change, and how quickly?

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 12/06/2016 12:56

I can't see anything changing quickly, and I'm wondering what expectations are because it seems to me that the leave camp have created very high expectations around immigration, wage increases, housing availability etc that have no chance of being realised in the short term.

Nothing will change in relation to the above - team Brexit are offering pie in the sky. There is no plan, no small print. Its empty rhetoric - "take back control" is no different to Trumps "make America great again" tagline. It panders to people who want cheap plaudits and no detail.

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Spinflight · 12/06/2016 18:32

"So Spinflight, to return to the topic, what do you expect to happen in the 2 years following a leave vote? In the 5 years?"

Sorry Mistigirl, I haven't been ignoring you.

Your question was worth a good ponder though. I'll happily give you my opinion, with the usual caveats.

One answer is it depends upon the weight of vote. I can see a narrow win for Brexit having different consequences to a heavy one.

There are a lot ( most ) of our past leaders and politicians who wouldn't take kindly to being turned into yesterday's men overnight. Do you think Blair would stop agitating in a narrow win?

As I've said elsewhere I very much hope it is clean and clear cut as the direction of travel is one partly determined by ourselves.

A narrow win would see renewed efforts to re-convince us, a thumping one and a clear signal a scrabble to deny ever having supported the EU by our executive.

Given that the thorny issue of immigration is a big one, especially after the lax handling over many years and many administrations, I'm certain that this will heavily impact upon policy.

It has a number of repercussions, most of which, especially economically, could only be adequately resolved, planned and forecasted by the civil service.

That this hasn't happened months ago is a disgrace which Cameron should pay for with his career.

Due to the thorny issue I can't see us accepting either a Norwegian or Swiss model. These might work well enough for them ( they are both very rich countries per capita) but we are a lot bigger and free movement of people will not I think be on the agenda.

We would see reforms to our system of immigration quickly, and tightened border checks. Merely exiting the EU would halve immigration but I think the government will go further. Quickly too, a new tory administration would be wise to make it the first act of the upcoming parliamentary session. We'd notice this over the medium term but it would have immediate effects. I doubt many would see us as the prime destination for asylum for instance.

On the whole I expect us to remain outside the single market and instead force them to lower their tarifs. There is a massive trade imbalance here so negotiations should be easy. There could be some truculence but we are in a position of power and the EUs own industries have vested interests which they would not be impressed to see defied. Two years, until actual exit, would be a realistic timeframe for this.

Merely the spectre of the cheap and constant flows of immigrant labour being reduced would see employers favouring those domestic and skilled or young. You don't make money in business by being stupid, and it would only be good sense to retain those you value when the labour market as a whole is likely to become tighter. I think people would see this effect in their next pay rise.

Housing would remain congested in the medium term though I think it would ease a bit after a few years. I suspect that properties in London and the South East would stop their crazy rises, maybe countered by rises in some of the once important trading cities like Glasgow and Liverpool.

We'd see some regeneration outside the Southeast as it's preferential georgraphy with the EU lost significance. I actually think this would happen quite quickly, very noticeable within 5 years.

Overall I think of it more as a rebalancing than as radical change. Rates of growth retarded or accelerated as the treasury's dodgy dossier implies.

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Mistigri · 12/06/2016 18:58

*We would see reforms to our system of immigration quickly, and tightened border checks. Merely exiting the EU would halve immigration but I think the government will go further. Quickly too, a new tory administration would be wise to make it the first act of the upcoming parliamentary session.

You haven't made yourself very clear here, but if you are suggesting that EU immigration could be halted in the next parliamentary session that's clearly wrong, since the UK will be in the EU until July 2018 at the earliest.

It is hard to see a government very occupied with negotiations and rewriting large amounts of domestic law wanting to make major changes to non-EU immigration law at the same time, particularly if large employers and party donors are concerned about skill shortages.

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Mistigri · 12/06/2016 18:58

Sorry, that first para above is a quote from spinflight

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Mistigri · 12/06/2016 19:02

I think people would see this effect in their next pay rise.

Wow. So you're expecting widespread pay rises for low paid workers as early as April 2017? That an ... um ... bold prediction!

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Spinflight · 12/06/2016 19:08

" if you are suggesting that.."

No, I'm specifically suggesting that the tory government would seek to limit migration from outside the EU before our actual exit from the EU, which you correctly highlighted would be 2 years.

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Spinflight · 12/06/2016 19:11

" That an ... um ... bold prediction!"

I think I can justify it.

A part of an employee's potential value to the employer is the cost to replace him or her. After a Brexit vote that implied cost increases, and therefore justifies higher wages.

Now I'm not saying that many employers might wait till the last minute, but the wise one's would seek to convince their employees of their value beforehand.

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 12/06/2016 19:17

I live in an area that has very little immigration yet the traditional low paid jobs - cleaning, care work etc are surprize, surprize still low paid. Housing is expensive. I don't know how these people get by. We do have plenty of food banks though.

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Limer · 12/06/2016 20:25

I'm a bit bemused by the "we'd better stay in the EU otherwise the Tories will shaft us" stance. The Tories are in power now, but with a very slim majority, and as soon as this referendum is over (regardless of the result), there'll be an awful lot of in-fighting and possibly another general election.

If the Tories propose dismantling a load of workers' rights legislation, Labour will surely propose retaining it - and maybe improving on it. The UK voters will then democratically decide. I'm looking forward to our own political parties having to do this, rather than the whole sorry lot of them just shrugging their shoulders and saying, "we can't change anything, the EU made these rules".

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BreakingDad77 · 14/06/2016 12:10

If the Tories propose dismantling a load of workers' rights legislation, Labour will surely propose retaining it

Not necessarily, remember they felt the need to support austerity. Post brexit tories will be at the negotiating table around the time of elections, they will probably say stuff like don't let labour in to undo our work "labour wanted to remain/didn't listen to the people, need to take back control etc" and corbyn is not really right.

Maybe labour do somehow turn it around they will be faced with the need to massively spend on creaking social services, and NHS, (assuming Tories/UKIP haven't start privatizing it( while corporate and individual tax receipts have gone down.

Labour then stuck falling back to type of being painted the unresponsible one running up the national debt, conservatives get back in after next election and it continues for ever.

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unexpsoc · 14/06/2016 12:42

Day 1
Dancing in the street as the Vote Leave campaign storm the houses of parliament and burn to death the euro-lickspittles George Osborne and David Cameron. The first new hospital with public money is started – remember, there will be a new one every two weeks with the money we save.
Day 2
Anyone who’s name is Piotr or Pierre is kicked off the housing waiting list. As immigrants rush for the borders their jobs are hoovered up by those plucky Brits who weren’t getting a chance before.
Day 3
Bananas go back on sale in their original format, slightly more bent and in bunches of five. Unfortunate photo opportunity where Boris Johnson is photographed eating one and people wonder just how far removed in evolutionary terms we are from chimpanzees.
Day 4
Human Rights bollocks is repealed. Alongside it we finally get rid of all that guff about equal rights, maternity pay, paternity leave, disabled access. Unable to control themselves, Rupert Murdoch and Mike Ashley are filmed engaging in an orgy of fisting prostrate Remain MPs.
Day 5
Largest ever fishing haul in history landed by the British Fleet. Stopped at the Scottish Border heading South by the newly formed ScotsNats revolutionary guard. Minor scuffle turns into a major event as tons of fish are battered.
Day 6
With a promise of VAT at 30% but corporation tax at 5% every major company in the world relocates to Milton Keynes. Although without any of their head office employees who are embarrassingly turned back at the airport for being “a bit foreign like”.
Day 7
UKIP leadership melt down as they realise that the European Parliament are now refusing to pay their wages any more. Nigel Farage says goodbye to German wife at the airport with a cheery “fuck off, kraut”.

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lljkk · 14/06/2016 13:41

Not pretending I have a crystal ball, but this is what I expect... DaveC may limp into 2019/20. Boris won't make it into No.10 (ever).

Rest of EU will rally in belief of the positives of EU, and re-energised resolution to make the EU a success.

UK: Long slow descent to recession, fall of £ against other currencies, & moderate job losses across wide industries. Economy hitting bottom about 3-4 yrs after the vote, followed by long slow pick up, to get back to about where we are now.

Mini-flight of high tech/science ability people from UK to elsewhere.

At ~4 yrs after vote, Immigration from EU will have declined by about 1/3... sort of. That's presuming we don't count seasonal agricultural workers. Net immigration will pick up again, so that 10 yrs after-vote, net EU migrant intake about 3/4 of what it is now. Immigration from non-EU decline by about 10% at Vote+4yrs (economically driven), but on a constant upward trend thereafter. General decline in most UK manufacturing as we are undercut by manufacturers in other countries spotting a market opportunity with EU. Considerable disarray in domestic food production. Food prices will have a period of big falls until high tariffs are imposed to try to save domestic agricultural production. More safety scares on imported food (from outside EU).

Goods will start appearing in UK that don't meet EU or US safety standards; lots of threads on MN trying to educate everyone to look for CE marks to make sure electrical and other products are safe to buy.

For yrs, almost nothing else will happen in national govt except negotiating the exit terms & new trade deals, so loads of issues will be put on hold/not dealt with. This may be good if it means NHS/schools/other industries can just stabilise rather than keeping dealing with waves of "reforms" and "reorganisation".

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unexpsoc · 14/06/2016 15:31

I was only joking, but apparently Farage has now said that post brexit we should get rid of laws against discrimination because we are colour-blind so it shouldn't matter.

Holy.

Fuck.

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