French border warning: is it just blackmail?

[WinnieTheW0rm]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

The French Finance minister has said that if UK votes to leave, the French will end border controls at Calais and allow people to leave France unchecked.

Are his comments representative of French governmental thinking?

[nearlyhellokitty]

Oh come on Springy.

Getting annoyed with selective quotes from you and your repetition of something that several people already challenged you on is not the same as personal attacks. Wow.

Basically you don't like it when we challenge the things you keep presenting as 'facts' when they really aren't.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Thistledew
That's what I said. There is nothing to physically stop any Government doing anything they wish to - short of war, however International Law does attempt to give those ex-patriots legal protection.

What you have to consider is whether a country would wish to expel any sector of its habitually resident population. I would suggest that if those people were net contributors to the economy of the country by bring in their British pensions and buying local services and paying taxes and occupying otherwise empty homes would wish to expel that population and deny them themselves the benefits these people bring.

[nearlyhellokitty]

NB here's a pretty detailed discussion of what might happen next after a vote to leave:

ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/what-happens-if-we-vote-for-brexit/

[Thistledew]

There are also likely to be thousands of families affected who do not have a permanent right of residence in their host country, who will suddenly find themselves having to comply with far more stringent immigration laws, which they may well not satisfy. I have not seen any reassurance from any of the exit campaigners which would assure me that British families will not be split up across borders as a result of the UK exiting.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Nearlyhellpkitty

I have just reported your last attack on me to MNHQ. I will continue to report any further personal attacks you may make

[nearlyhellokitty]

springing - no one has said 'expel' that's where we diverge and where I think you are mischaracterising it.

As I understand it there would be administrative issues/ probably less access to benefits than before which might as a consequence force sections of the residents to return. probably a lot of people who'd been living somewhere for a long time would sort themselves out but those who'd only been there for a few years might well have some issues.

however anyone now trying to settle in another EU country after a BREXIT would have far more trouble.

disclaimerno one really knows so this is a projection.

[nearlyhellokitty]

springing - wow, just wow.

[Chalalala]

Basically you don't like it when we challenge the things you keep presenting as 'facts' when they really aren't.

Bingo.

[SpringingIntoAction]

British living in many EU countries already have to apply for residence after set periods of time.

Again, how easy / difficult EU countries wish to make it for British citizens to live in their countries post-Brexit will denied on whether the individual countries seek to retain their British population or remove them.

People's viewpoints on the 'right' to live in any country will probably be swayed by whether you welcome a single European country via political union in which any European can live anywhere in Europe, or whether you think individual nations should remain sovereign and have control over who is permitted to live within that country.

[nearlyhellokitty]

I honestly feel that this is an attempt to shut down what I am saying and delete honest fact based rebuttals.

[SpringingIntoAction]

There are also likely to be thousands of families affected who do not have a permanent right of residence in their host country, who will suddenly find themselves having to comply with far more stringent immigration laws, which they may well not satisfy.

This cuts both ways. Because the Government cannot control immigration from the EU to the UK, its only option to reduce immigration to the UK is to reduce non-EU immigration. That means that in order to have the right to reside iin this country the earning qualification will increase in April from £18,500 to £35,500. This means far stringent immigrant controls that prevent non-EU citizens who may wish to come to live in the UK and who have skills the UK could utilise from doing so.

[Thistledew]

SpringingIntoAction "British living in many EU countries already have to apply for residence after set periods of time."

Again, this is incorrect. As a national of the EU, we currently have a right to reside in any EU country provided that we can satisfy the conditions of being a worker, self employed, student or self-sufficient. Once you have been resident in an EU country for 5 years whilst holding status in one or more of those categories you acquire a permanent right of residence. However, there is no obligation to make any sort of application for recognition of that status. So there are a significant number of people who hold a right of permanent residence but have no stamp in their passport to prove it.

A pragmatic view will be to transfer everyone with a permanent right of residence onto some other category of indefinite leave to remain, but this is not a given in any country. It would be perfectly open to any country to require people prove, for example, that they are still economically active above a particular threshold.

It is a particular rose-tinted view to think that there will not be thousands of people in both directions who lose the right to reside in their host country of choice, and to think that people will not suffer real infringement to their private and family lives as a result.

[Thistledew]

" That means that in order to have the right to reside iin this country the earning qualification will increase in April from £18,500 to £35,500. This means far stringent immigrant controls that prevent non-EU citizens who may wish to come to live in the UK and who have skills the UK could utilise from doing so."

Quite, and many EU nationals will not be able to meet this sort of barrier, so will have to leave the UK. The government (even the one that wants us to stay) will actually be able to carry out its promise to reduce immigration to the 'tens of thousands'.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Thistledown

SpringingIntoAction "British living in many EU countries already have to apply for residence after set periods of time."

Again, this is incorrect.

Actually, it is correct.

Take for example Bulgaria - an EU country:

British citizens, as well as all other EU citizens can enter Bulgaria without a visa and stay for a period up to 3 months. If intending to stay for a longer period than 3 months, EU citizens need to apply for a continuous residence certificate with the Migration Directorate of the Bulgarian Ministry of Interior.

www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-bulgaria

[SpringingIntoAction]

Thistledew

Quite, and many EU nationals will not be able to meet this sort of barrier, so will have to leave the UK. The government (even the one that wants us to stay) will actually be able to carry out its promise to reduce immigration to the 'tens of thousands'

Err no. No EU national will have to leave the UK. The £35,500 earnings qualification is for non-EU citizens only. It does not apply to EU citizens who could come to the UK with their families, earn minimum wage and have their earnings topped up by child benefit, housing benefit, and tax credits.
The insistence of the EU on free movement for all EU citizens means the UK, in its attempts to reduce immigration, is denying itself skilled non-EU immigrants.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Chalalala
I reported your personal attack to MNHQ too.

[Chalalala]

My personal attack? You mean before or after you called me brainwashed and pedantic?

[Thistledew]

No, I am correct. Rights of residence in the EU for other EU nationals are 'as of right' and are not dependent upon the issuance of permission by any member State. You can obtain a residence permit, but this is declaratory of the rights you have, and do not amount to a request for or grant of permission by the member State. I am not sure that the info on the website is correct to say that you 'have' to apply for a residence certificate - this is certainly not required by the relevant EU Directive.

My point about the increase in the financial hurdle for migrants is that if we leave the EU then this can be applied to EU citizens who are already resident here.

[SpringingIntoAction]

No, I am correct. Rights of residence in the EU for other EU nationals are 'as of right' and are not dependent upon the issuance of permission by any member State. You can obtain a residence permit, but this is declaratory of the rights you have, and do not amount to a request for or grant of permission by the member State. I am not sure that the info on the website is correct to say that you 'have' to apply for a residence certificate - this is certainly not required by the relevant EU Directive.

some do require you to register, some don't.

3 months before registration for Italy and Austria

www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-italy

www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-italy

Post Brexit it would be fair to treat all immigrants equally although I feel it would be better to replace the rigid £35,500 qualification with an Australian style immigration systems that enabled the UK to obtain the skills it needs

[SpringingIntoAction]

I did not call you brainwashed. I did state what you had written was pedantic. That is very different from calling into question one's integrity

[Chalalala]

if we leave the EU then this can be applied to EU citizens who are already resident here

Also my concern... especially since it's possible to have lived in the UK for years and not have acquired permanent residence. I studied in the UK for 5 years but then was told by UKBA that none of it counted towards the 5 years needed for permanent residence.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Also my concern... especially since it's possible to have lived in the UK for years and not have acquired permanent residence. I studied in the UK for 5 years but then was told by UKBA that none of it counted towards the 5 years needed for permanent residence.

That's worrying because my child's partner is relying on legal advice from an Immigration Lawyer that appears to contradict what you were told by UKBA.

[Chalalala]

Well, the law may have changed since, it was a few years ago. But my application was definitely rejected, because I couldn't show I had independent health insurance over the whole 5 years period (other than the NHS, obviously). I would have gotten it when I first moved to the UK if I'd known at the time, but I didn't know, and neither did any of my friends.

[SpringingIntoAction]

We're Ok on proving they have been self-supporting and have not used UK funds to support themselves but could get caught out by the increase in qualifying wages. I hope not.

[Thistledew]

SpringingIntoAction

There is a distinction that you have not grasped between the requirement to seek permission to reside in a country, and the requirement to register your right to reside. Article 8(1) of Directive 2004/38 allows member states to require someone to register, but the sanctions they can impose for failure to do so do not include depriving someone of their right of residence. This may seem like a purely legalistic distinction, but it does have important applications. It is a very different situation for non-EU migrants who only have a right of residence if they have been granted that right specifically and individually. So what you said "British living in many EU countries already have to apply for residence after set periods of time." is not technically correct.

There may well be thousands of people in Chalalala's situation who are EU migrants who have lived in the UK for many years and have jobs, homes and families here, but are not able to demonstrate a continuous period of residence under the Regulations for 5 years, even if they do now comply.