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Brexit

French border warning: is it just blackmail?

166 replies

WinnieTheW0rm · 03/03/2016 06:57

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

The French Finance minister has said that if UK votes to leave, the French will end border controls at Calais and allow people to leave France unchecked.

Are his comments representative of French governmental thinking?

OP posts:
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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 17:13

I don't know why we think the views of one French Minister for the Economy matter one jot.

He's not even the French PM, or French Foreign Sec or French Immigration Minister so these are his personal views rather than an official French stance.

But it suits the purposes of those who want the UK to REMAIN to spread fear, worry and uncertainty as people are more likely to vote for the status quo.

It also suits the BBC to regurgitate this silly story which had already been debated and put to bed weeks ago. The BBC receives several £million of EU funding each year.

If Marine Le Pen's National Front get in at the next French election she says she will remove the British Border Agency staff from the French side anyway.

Why do we want to REMAIN in a partnership with countries who threaten to punish us if we exercise our right to self-determination and choose to leave the EU?

Is self-determination so alien to them and that they attempt to ridicule those countries who choose sovereignty to the EU vision of ever closer political union and have confidence in their ability to succeed in the world, like most of the non-EU countries manage to do successfully?

I am utterly disgusted at Cameron and his scare stories that treat this population like cowardly fools.

If leaving the EU was such a huge, dangerous step that would put safety, security and prosperity at risk you could be sure that there is no way we would be allowed to vote on it. The fact is that leaving is a perfectly reasonable and achievable stance. Even Cameron himself said we would survive outside the EU!



I want OUT. I want to stop sending £millions a day to a corrupt organisation that has proved itself totally incapable of managing either its currency or its borders and which has the audacity to threaten me for seeing a brighter future.
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nearlyhellokitty · 03/03/2016 17:19

Can i just say that the Vienna Declaration is no way near as clear as that Biscuits: Article 70 of that convention only protects rights and obligations “created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination”.

Basically UK citizens would probably not get stuff taken away that they have now but ..could not count on retaining the rights they have in the future.

In addition, for your kids, they would then likely not enjoy all the benefits that the UK has now in the EU in terms of being able to easily work and live anywhere in the EU.

Finally - the UK has done Brexit scenarios here - www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf. Have a look at it and see what you think.

Key conclusion: Whatever alternative to membership the UK seeks following a decision to leave the EU, we will lose influence over EU decisions that will still directly affect us. We need to weigh the benefits of access to the EU and global markets against the obligations and costs incurred in return. It is the assessment of the UK Government that no existing model outside the EU comes close to providing the same balance of advantages and influence that we get from the UK’s current special status inside the EU.

And this trope about Brussels just deciding everything with no democracy.. so boring. We elect our MEPs to Brussels, its our own fault if we elect UKIP MEPs that don't bother to do any legislative work. our government is responsible for negotiating everything as well in the Council - teh Commission can't just propose something and everyone has to do it. Our government justs loves to come back and blame everybody else for decisions they were also in favour of.

We would basically LOSE decision making rights and have much more imposed on us by leaving because we will not be at teh table when they discuss legislation and our companies will have to comply when they try and export goods to the continent.

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AuntieFlaubert · 03/03/2016 17:30

If we leave the EU it will piss off most of the other countries, for a variety of reasons.
It's foolish to think that any of them will do us any favours. The French in particular will be very glad to get rid of the mess around Calais.

And it's equally foolish to think that we can leave it all to the ferry companies. If governments can't sort the problem, how the hell can they?

Call it Project Fear if you like, but that won't solve the very real issues of Brexit.

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Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 03/03/2016 17:36

Anna Forbes/ ajandjjmum

The point is that the UK border is now in France. UK border force check documents of people who want to travel to Uk there. Anyone without the right documents cannot board a train/ship/travel by car to UK. France co-operates on this not least because current EU law to which both UK and France have signed up says that asylum seekers have to seek asylum in the first safe EU country they arrive in. This means UK can return asylum seekers to France

If this agreement with France is terminated, then the border moves to Dover. Any illegal migrants/asylum seekers will already be in Uk. UK will not be able to return them to France. They will either have to be housed/detained at UK government expense or granted temporary leave to remain while cases and then appeals are heard. France will have no duty to accept them back.

Ferry companies/eurostar etc are not equpped to carry out the kind of document checks (biometric, government data base) that UK borders carry out so will not be able to spot invalid travel documents in the same way.

Numbers in Calais are currently low because of the UK/French co-operation. They will increase massively if migrants see that they can actually get to UK and have appeals heard here.

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Chalalala · 03/03/2016 17:48

A: sorry darling, this isn't working for me anymore, I'm leaving you
B: oh. That's really disappointing.
A: but hey, we're still friends right? And since we're cool, please still come over every weekend to mow my lawn. And do my laundry too.
B: um... no.
A: what?! well, this really shows what an arsehole you are. Good thing I'm divorcing you.

(since the exit camp are so fond of the divorce analogy!)

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ajandjjmum · 03/03/2016 17:55

Sorry Drinkstoomuch - I don't understand. If they have no right, then they're returned by the same route that they got here, as happens with air passengers, surely?

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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 17:58

Basically UK citizens would probably not get stuff taken away that they have now but ..could not count on retaining the rights they have in the future

Scare-mongering. Expelling or victimising or depriving any sector of your resident population is a 'crime against humanity' under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and is also contrary to the Human Rights Act. Are you trying to say that one of our 'EU partners' would commit war crimes against Britons if the UK chose to leave the EU. If so, I'm glad we are leaving, I don't want the UK to be associated with thuggish administrations like that.

In addition, for your kids, they would then likely not enjoy all the benefits that the UK has now in the EU in terms of being able to easily work and live anywhere in the EU.

If they have the skills that the EU countries they wish to work in need, they will be able to secure work in those countries. Surprisingly, people actually lived in many of these (now) EU countries long before the EU was invented, ask Lord Byron, Grace Fields, Gerald and Lawrence Durrell.

Finally - the UK has done Brexit scenarios here

Correction: The UK Government that wishes us to stay in has done some Brexit scenarios.

Key conclusion: Whatever alternative to membership the UK seeks following a decision to leave the EU, we will lose influence over EU decisions that will still directly affect us. We need to weigh the benefits of access to the EU and global markets against the obligations and costs incurred in return. It is the assessment of the UK Government that no existing model outside the EU comes close to providing the same balance of advantages and influence that we get from the UK’s current special status inside the EU.

Correction: Key conclusion of a report commissioned by a UK Government that wants the UK to REMAIN in the EU. You get what you pay for. They would reach that conclusion, wouldn't they? Also, the UK has no special status inside the EU.

And this trope about Brussels just deciding everything with no democracy.. so boring. We elect our MEPs to Brussels, its our own fault if we elect UKIP MEPs that don't bother to do any legislative work.

You need to understand how the European Union works. The MEPs cannot initiate or kill any legislation that is proposed by the Commission. The MEPs only have limited powers to amend some legislation that is placed in front of them. Their ineffectiveness has been deliberately designed into the system

- the Commission can't just propose something and everyone has to do it.

It can actually. It proposes laws which are debated and then passed by the European parliament. The UK must then adopt those laws. When we try to get proposals changed we find that we are overruled 72 times out of the last 72 times we asked, by the Council.

Our government justs loves to come back and blame everybody else for decisions they were also in favour of.

On this we agree. The EU is a very useful tool for our Governments to get legislation passed that they know would not be passed by the Westminster Parliament. Teresa May has admitted that is so. That's nothing we should be proud of as it's an undemocratic circumvention of our democratic process. Actually quite disgraceful, but a good example of what happens when your Parliament is ruled over by a superior authority.

We would basically LOSE decision making rights and have much more imposed on us by leaving because we will not be at teh table when they discuss legislation

If we are not in the EU we would not have to adopt their legislation. We may end up copying some of the future rules they pass because it would be in our interests to do so but please do not delude yourself by thinking we are in the heart of the EU shaping EU legislation because we are not. as i said above every one of our last 72 proposals has been rejected. we can be over-ruled by other countries using QMV and that situation will get worse as more countries join the EU and they too get a share in the decision-making - for us.

We lost influence in the world (not the EU) when the EU forced us to give up our World Trade Organisation seat. we will lose even more power in the world as we are forced to give up more of our seats on international bodies and have to accept that the EU represents us on these.

and our companies will have to comply when they try and export goods to the continent

Just like they do when they export to all other 168 countries in the world. Every country in the world has standards to which those trading with them must adhere. But actually, under TTIP the EU will be reducing the safety standards of goods so our goods will continue to be safe until proven otherwise whereas under TTIP EU goods will be made to a standard determined by the EU until they are proved to be unsafe.

Sorry - still haven't heard a sensible, coherent argument for us giving up the NHS and our welfare state, which we will have to do if we continue to allow the free movement of 400 million EU citizens - we couldn't afford to keep them.

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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 18:04

Ferry companies/eurostar etc are not equpped to carry out the kind of document checks (biometric, government data base) that UK borders carry out so will not be able to spot invalid travel documents in the same way.

Nonsense. Air carriers across the world manage it successfully. They get fined if they bring illegal immigrants to this country. The ferry and train companies must start doing the same checks or face the same penalties.

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Chalalala · 03/03/2016 18:06

still haven't heard a sensible, coherent argument for us giving up the NHS and our welfare state, which we will have to do if we continue

and let me guess... you accuse the 'in' camp of scaremongering? Project fear works both ways, looks like!

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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 18:09

Challala
A: sorry darling, this isn't working for me anymore, I'm leaving you
B: oh. That's really disappointing.
A: but hey, we're still friends right? And since we're cool, please still come over every weekend to mow my lawn. And do my laundry too.
B: um... no.
A: what?! well, this really shows what an arsehole you are. Good thing I'm divorcing you.

(since the exit camp are so fond of the divorce analogy!)


Alternatively:

A: Sorry darling, telling me I cannot do business with whoever I want to is just too restricting and you're controlling me. Telling me that I must allow all your friends to come and live in my house is just not reasonable - I'm off
B: If you go I will stop your money.
A:But you said you loved me
B:Only if I can control you
A: I'm going to find myself a partner that respects me
B: If you do that I'll harm you, I'll make you pay, I'll make you so frightened you'll be terrified to leave me

(since the STAY camp seems intent on keeping the partners of an abusive relationship together)

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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 18:13

Chalala


and let me guess... you accuse the 'in' camp of scaremongering? Project fear works both ways, looks like!

No, I'm showing you the reality of trying to provide an NHS and welfare state to every EU citizen who wishes to come to use it.

That's not project fear, because it's a fact - it's a rather inconvenient reality for the REAMIN side.

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Chalalala · 03/03/2016 18:25

your analogy has nothing to do with the topic here - we're talking about a favour France is currently doing the UK. When someone divorces you, you stop doing them favours, and that is not abusing behaviour.

That's not project fear, because it's a fact

seriously, how are you not seeing the irony here? kettle, pot...

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Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 03/03/2016 18:51

Ajandjmum

UK cannot return asylum seekers once they have arrived in Uk. UK has to consider their application and allow anybappeals. This is the procedure. The reply within 6 months is wildly optimistic.

www.gov.uk/claim-asylum/overview

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SpringingIntoAction · 03/03/2016 18:57

oh I do see the irony Chalala

You raised the analogy of a divorce in an attempt to portray France as doing us a favour and referencing that to the Brexit campaign. I responded by showing you how some relationships never reach divorce because nasty threats of domestic violence leave one partner unable to leave.

The statements about the NHS and welfare state being open to any EU citizen who choses to move to the UK are facts. It's silly to pretend otherwise.

The only saving grace is that if we remain in the EU the NHS will be broken up by the EU's TTIP agreement with the US as it will open the NHS to competition. I happen to love the NHS but I appreciate it can never afford to be Europe's Health Service. So we'll lose it.

By the way - Project Fear is now Project Surrender as George Osborne has just tweeted:

Wolfgang Schauble made clear if we leave the EU, to access single market UK would have to pay into EU budget and accept free movement.

So when your Chancellor of the Exchequer willingly accepts what he's told by the Germans it is Project White Flag.

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Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 03/03/2016 19:00

Springing into action: Nonsense? Really?

Believe me Pand O Ferries do not have access to government databases and they cannot carry out biometric controls. Carrier checks are so inefficient that there are currently 10s of thousands of identified illegal migrants in the UK. The fines have little or no impact.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-27332370

These are all non Eu migrants. They will continue to be attracted to the UK whether we stay or leave. But if we leave, the French will have absolutely no incentive to keep them in France.

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WinnieTheW0rm · 03/03/2016 19:04

This will have come through a translator, but they were prepared not off-the-cuff remarks so the resonance will be exactly what was intended.

"A French government minister earlier suggested his country could end UK border controls in Calais.
Asked whether he would do this, Mr Hollande said: "I don't want to scare you, I just want to say the truth - there will be consequences.""

OP posts:
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Chalalala · 03/03/2016 19:10

You raised the analogy of a divorce in an attempt to portray France as doing us a favour and referencing that to the Brexit campaign

No. I am posting on the "French border warning" thread, and I was referring specifically to the issue of Calais, as the thread title indicates. I am not "attempting to portray" anything, France is currently doing the UK a favour on this issue.

On the more general issue of Brexit, which is not what I was referring to, I do agree that both our interpretations can be viewed as valid, depending on the point of view. But on the specific issue discussed in this thread, arguing that France is behaving like an abusive spouse and is just wrong.

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Chalalala · 03/03/2016 19:13

"I don't want to scare you, I just want to say the truth - there will be consequences"

and btw Hollande is full of crap here, he definitely wants to scare the Brits. But it doesn't mean that he's not telling the truth about the border. His government's popularity is abysmal, and there are elections coming.

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YeOldeTrout · 03/03/2016 19:22

Why should EU be nice to Britain after we leave? Yes we are a big trading partner, but so are USA & China. USA & China don't want the special deals we say we want, they would not be capable of getting such deals, and they are bigger fish than UK. It only makes sense for EU to be very nice to UK if that's in exchange for a big range of benefits cooperating in very many areas.... all the coordinating & cooperating that the Outs don't want to do any more.

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JassyRadlett · 03/03/2016 19:32

It can actually. It proposes laws which are debated and then passed by the European parliament. The UK must then adopt those laws. When we try to get proposals changed we find that we are overruled 72 times out of the last 72 times we asked, by the Council

You missed out the Council of Ministers in your description of how Commission proposals become law. I'm sure it was an oversight, rather than an intent to mislead.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/03/2016 19:32

If they have no right, then they're returned by the same route that they got here, as happens with air passengers, surely?

You can only return them to France if they are French. You can't deport people to random countries they have passed through, you need to return them to the country of their nationality.

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nearlyhellokitty · 03/03/2016 19:35

Springing can you reference the council 72 out of 72 overruling? This is totally wrong. Most legislation is adopted through Qualified Majority in the council? That's a voting system where each country gets a certain number of votes depending on the size. The UK has the biggest amount possible alongside Germany. I really don't understand where you got that from

The final outcome of legislation is in most cases a process where the European Parliament and council (ie the member states) negotiate the final outcome together. They can block commission proposals and do. I can give you examples.

Then there are two main types of legislation - directives where eg the UK would bring the framework agreed at EU level into UK legislation and agree internally on exactly how to do it (like on water quality) and regulations which are directly applicable normally because they are quite technical.

With things like tax the member states like the UK can veto.

Honestly you can criticise the process but it seems to me you don't have the full picture

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JassyRadlett · 03/03/2016 19:35

Basically, these threads always run the same way from the Leave side:

'We just want people to make the decision based on facts*, not propaganda!'

  • Unless those facts suggest that life outside the EU might not consist of streets paved with gold or that there are risks attached, at which point we will accuse them of scaremongering, while expecting people to take assertions with less evidence as fact.
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Woodhill · 03/03/2016 19:40

Can we not strengthen up our borders so they cannot get in. If we are not in the EU could we not change our legislation to protect ourselves from the migrants and do not have to accept them.

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Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 03/03/2016 19:47

Springing: in your curious description of the way in which the Commission legislates, you missed out the role of the UK Permanent Representation in Brussels, the Council Working Groups made up of Member State representatives and representing Member State interests, the role of the UK Parliamentary Scrutiny Committee, the Council of Ministers etc.
When Michael Gove does this I know he is being deliberately misleading. In your case I am not sure.

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