Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

[seeker]

'but I do find it dissapointing that people can take the piss out of what others believe when it comes to christianity. ' Who has been doing that, teamcullen? How is it taking the piss to say that I don't want my child to practice Christianity at school, or that I feel that there are a lot of hours for parents to instil their beliefs into their children - I don't want teachers doing that at school. And particularly not to children whose parents don't agree with the particular beliefs being instilled.
And I would say the same about any faith - it just so happens that Christianity is the only one being promulgated at state schools paid for by my taxes!

[ravenAK]

I'm an atheist, teamcullen, & you can take the piss out of what I believe (although I'd use 'think', not 'believe'), any time you like.

[GrimmaTheNome]

..dissapointing that people can take the piss out of what others believe when it comes to christianity.

fair enough. Piss taking detracts from serious issues. But have you ever stopped to think about the current status quo? Large numbers of faith schools, and all the rest supposed to perform an act of worship (usually of a christian character). Thats not mere piss take. That is treating those of us who do not follow your belief system with total and utter contempt. Not just on an internet forum, but for real. Not just some MNer having a dig, it is the whole educational system as it stands.

[dreamylady]

YES

I agree with what ravenAK said:

"Have one subject called 'Philosophy & Ethics', & cover the useful stuff from Citizenship, PSHCE & RE under its umbrella."

teach 'em to critically evaluate what they're told, to discuss differences in belief (including atheism and humanism)and opinion calmly with each other, and to make their own minds up about the world (and what might be outside it)

any spare time should be spent teaching them to cook with raw ingredients and building emotional resilience.

[ravenAK]

& the thing is, I've yet to meet an atheist proponent of secular schools who wants to proselytise atheism: no-one's asking for the right to hold assemblies saying:

'There IS no God. Got that? Now go tell your parents.'

The secular position is generally that these matters are within the sphere of parenting, & should be respected as such.

[daftpunk]

GrimmatheNome

i do understand what you mean, but it isn't catholics fault that not enough schools are built....plus, you do have the option of becoming a catholic if you want to.

and like i said, lots of things people pay for that they will never use.

[Snorbs]

DP, you're right in assuming that I wouldn't want my DS to go to a faith school (and neither does he). But that's rather missing the point. I want to send my DS to our local secondary school, but I cannot as it's a faith school. So he'll have to go somewhere that will be upwards of an hour travelling each away.

If our local school were a secular school it would properly be serving the needs of the whole community in which it is located. As it is, it only serves the relatively tiny minority of those who believe that particular version of the "invisible man in the sky" story, plus a somewhat larger minority of those who pretend to believe to get their kids into the school.

I have no problem with paying taxes for services I do not, or cannot necessarily use. I have no use for cervical smear tests, for example, but I'm happy to help finance them as there's a quantifiable benefit to society as a whole in doing so. I do have a problem with said taxes being used to promote certain religious beliefs and to segregate the believers from those who believe otherwise. I fail to see how any good can come from that.

[seeker]

daftpunk - for a moment there I though you were suggesting that the best way to solve the problem of not wanting our children to be fed religion at school is to become a catholic....you weren't, were you?

[ravenAK]

'you do have the option of becoming a Catholic'

I didn't realise it was an option!

I thought you had to um, agree with the teachings of the Catholic church. Not just agree to any load of old wallop because the school's handy & its selective admission policy means good results.

Dp, I'm afraid you're undermining the argument somewhat; it says something about your respect for your own faith that you seem to see it as a celestial supermarket reward card.

[daftpunk]

snorbs;

your taxes are probably going on lots of things you don't particularly believe in...

and what do you think happens in faith schools that is segregating them from society..? they say a few prayers in the morning....that's about it.

they don't all leave at 11 looking like osama bin laden

[UnquietDad]

I also have the option of becoming a Zoroastrian, a Flat Earther, a follower of David Icke or a believer in Pink Unicorns. I see no reason why, barring some kind of mental breakdown, I should ever want, need or have to.

[GrimmaTheNome]

i do understand what you mean, but it isn't catholics fault that not enough schools are built....

don't quite understand that. If state schools were secularized, I would guess some formula would have to be worked out to leave a proportion of currently CofE/RC as non-state faith schools with others becoming secular state schools. It would probably be quite a complicated formula. But thats no reason to get stuck with the current anachronistic system.

plus, you do have the option of becoming a catholic if you want to.

Er, no I don't. What a strange thing to say. I don't have the option of becoming any sort of Christian.

and like i said, lots of things people pay for that they will never use.

But I would have liked to use the state education system. I couldn't.

[daftpunk]

rofl raven...celestial reward card..

i tell you what...not a bad idea, the church are always looking at ways to improve the sunday congregation

[teamcullen]

ravenAK- I personally do not and have not taken the piss out out out what you or anybody else thinks or believe. I think everybody is responsible for their own comments, so if somebody else has taken the piss out of you then take it up with them.

Seeker- there are quite a few comments on pg 3 that I feel are taking the piss.

I have said that I agree that all religions need to be explored. And I do feel that religion should be taught, because it is such a big part of the way people live their lives, and the way different parts of the world are run.

As for collective worship, Im sure most non denomination schools have an opt out clause. I know this has been the case when Ive been searching for secondary schools for DS. I understand that this may be difficult if your children are young and you have strong views as you may feel they are being unfairly excluded. However (Im sure I will be slaughtered for this comparrison) Im sure that young children whos parents have choosen for them to be vegetarian and are not allowed to go to MacDonalds for a party feel the same.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Faith schools tend (I know there are exceptions) to segregate by dividing catholics from protestantst from muslims/hindus/other.

Faith schools have helped retain the chasm between protestant and catholic in Northern Ireland. Here, I see my local school, being CofE, almost entirely populated with white kids - not representative of the area. Either actual christians or people who can pretend.

A few weeks ago we paid a visit to the museum in Bolton. It has an aquarium, the walls of which were decorated with nice fishy pictures by schoolchildren. The names of the two schools and the kids from each were listed. One was Church of England, the other a County Primary. DH and I were quite stunned... the CofE was, without exception Emilys, Charlottes, Jacks etc. The CP was without exception Mohammeds, Ammars etc. Coincidence?

[daftpunk]

seeker, no i'm not saying everyone should become a catholic, what i'm saying is you have that option, just like i have the option to convert to islam.

[Snorbs]

DP, the whole thing of having a special school for those that believe one particular set of myths is inevitably segregating. How could it not be? The opportunities for those children to mix with children who believe otherwise are inevitably significantly reduced.

On the other hand, you seem to be saying that the only real difference between a faith-based state school and a general state school are a "few prayers in the morning".

If so, what's the point? Why have faith schools at all? Where's the benefit?

[daftpunk]

segregation gets worse the older people get, when do you ever walk into a pub and see all religions sitting happily playing cards..?

it will never happen.

people like to stick together.

not much wrong with that imo.

even at my ds school (all catholic), the dads stand together, the asian mums stand together, the africans stand together...

.

[GrimmaTheNome]

But why have collective worship in a school to start with? If it was done away with then there would be no issue, no exclusion. If you think worship is important, then say prayers as a family before and/or after school. Take them to church on Sunday.

I wouldn't hold a party at McDonalds if I knew a lot of the children couldn't eat beef.

[daftpunk]

snorbs...i was being a bit too simplistic...alot more goes on.

anyway, i need to get some sleep

night

[plonker]

No. (answer to OP).

[GrimmaTheNome]

Really DP? At my DDs school, the mums and dads, white, asian(hindu and muslim) all seen to not only stand intermingled but chat and arrange playdates. Maybe we're just a more open-minded set of people?

Not much wrong with that imo!

[seeker]

" seeker, no i'm not saying everyone should become a catholic, what i'm saying is you have that option, just like i have the option to convert to islam."

So that's all right then. The nearest school to me is a Catholic faith school - so I convert to Catholicism. Problem solved.

[Snorbs]

DP, I think what you have just said perfectly exemplifies the problems with segregation. Start it early enough and it seems normal...

[noideawhereIamgoing]

With Seeker on this one.

Would love a proper state secular school but currently stuck with a state school which promotes Christianity as the only truth ...am often shocked by the rubbish they feed my kids and have become a more radical atheist since my kids started school.
If you want to bring your kids up within a faith then that's between you and the church - it should have little to do with school.
Also have issues with funding exclusively religious schools with our taxes. You want a religious education? - then you and the church should fund it.