Parents won't discipline children, schools are not allowed to discipline children, so grammar chools are the way forward.

[Longlost10]

The whole comprehensive system is dragged down by the financial, spiritual, moral, educational and professional cost of the huge number of total wasters in the student body. Those who disrupt lessons, ignore teachers, distract students, talk back, waste time, make paper aeroplanes out of worksheets, dawdle in late, don't bother to do their homework, don't come equipped, chat and fidget and generally make no attempt to learn. They are utterly selfish and just tink of nothing but enjoying themselves.They are pandered to and spoilt, offered endless chances, suck the system dry of money, time, energy, and resources. Teachers are held responsible for their imbecilic behaviour, and grind themselves into dust trying to work to change behavior which is under someone elses control entirely.

This is why I support grammar schools. It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs, and and incentive to behave well, and keep behaving well, as a grammar school student needs to maintain certain levels of behavior and achievement to remain a grammar school student.

So overall, the poor behavior goes down. Because a grammar school place is an incentive to behave properly, and so some bad behaviour improves.

In a comp, badly behaved pupils have nothing to lose. That changes in a grammar system.

And a large number of students can get away from the poor behaviour too. Of course there is some bad behaviour in grammar schools, but it isn't comparable.

So less bad behaviour, more learning, and fewer students affected by bad behaviour in others. Whats not to like??

Of course it doesn't solve the problem of having to put up with bad behaviour in secondary modern classrooms, but it doesn't make it any worse either.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Longlost - how many grammars have you been in? And not as a visitor, the students are very good at showing off for an audience.

[GoldFishFingerz]

What about the well behaved average kid whose school will have all the more able kids creamed off?

[mrz]

So you feel qualified to judge what happens in all comprehensives in England from your sample of less than 1%? I assume you selected the 40 from different LEAs ?

[Oblomov16]

I agree with OP on lots of points, and the other posters who say repeatedly bad behaviour is being done not only by children who are abused, but by children who are loud, naughty and disruptive. They don't have the respect for the system, because they KNOW that the child is now central and they can get away with it.

It does seem to be so weak and namby-pamby these days. Some teachers and HCP treating children as though they centre of the universe.

Teenagers in school uniform, walking down the street, policeman happens to be near railway station that they use to get to school, he asks them where they are going? They shout back telling him to F off, what's he gonna do about it, they all know he's powerless, and they walk off laughing.

They response from professionals re thus was that they didn't have any answers, they maintain these kids are good kids and that kind of answering back is the way it is these days?

Really? I disagree. Teaching needs to toughen up.
Not all children are that nice. Read what some of them post on smapchat etc. I hate how pathetic and deluded all the teachers and HCP's are about general children these days. Some of them are nice, some of them are not, and respect for others and institutions has disappeared. Can you really argue against that?

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

No, I don't argue against that. I argue against the ridiculous notion that behaviour is related to intelligence that longlost is putting forward.
I teach in a superselective. We have lovely students, lazy students, SEN students, bullies (that are dealt with as soon as we're aware) and some that quite frankly don't care about work or respect authority. Teenagers vary. Every generation complains about the ones after them. Even Socrates moaned about the 'youth of today'.
I actually experience most rudeness from the age group between my grandparents and parents (so post-war babies).

[Longlost10]

No, I don't argue against that. I argue against the ridiculous notion that behaviour is related to intelligence that longlost is putting forward.

I'm not arguing that behaviour is related to intelligence, but that behaviour is related to achievement, and that incentive is related to behaviour. Behaviour is so much better in a grammar school system because of this.

Every generation complains about the ones after them.
I'm not complaining about "the ones that come after me" - i am complaining about the sick culture of lack of discipline in schools, facilitated by adults, not children. The children only behave like that because the adults collude.

[Longlost10]

Longlost - how many grammars have you been in? I don't know, why do I keep being asked this sort of thing? Is it to make a point or are you actually wanting an answer. I'm guessing 25-30, probably.

[mrz]

BBC newsnight

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

If it's the adults' fault why are grammars the solution?
Can you not see how offensively some of what you say is coming across?
If you've been in that many, I doubt you've been there long enough to get a true picture. I had a hideously behaved year 11 class one year. Obviously, they were the class that OFSTED came to see. If you'd been there, you would have thought, as the inspector did, that they were little angels who never put a foot wrong and were enthusiastic about poetry. Wrong.

[Longlost10]

So you feel qualified to judge what happens in all comprehensives in England from your sample of less than 1%? I assume you selected the 40 from different LEAs ?

What sort of school did you go to Mrz? They didn't teach you what a percentage is, did they? i don't know how many LEAs, why do you keep asking this sort of thing? maybe 15 or so? What percentage of uk comprehensives have you worked in?

[Longlost10]

If it's the adults' fault why are grammars the solution? because expectations and power balance in grammars is totally different, and behaviour is far better. This is children who behave poorly improving theirr behaviour, not just well behaved children being gathered into one place. No, it doesn't solve the whole problem, but it helps a few without making it any worse for the majority.

[Longlost10]

It certainly didn't incentivise the boys expelled from our partner grammar in my year when we were in year 9. exactly my point, they were expelled. It is so much easier in a grammar, that is what I mean by the balance of power being different.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Where do you get the idea it's easier from? We are a state school. We have to follow the same rules as other schools on this issue.

[mrz]

I went to a grammar school

[mrz]

And I've not worked in any comprehensives or attended any ...I've visited a few (much fewer than 1%)

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Me too! mrz.
Obviously my experience in grammar schools doesn't count for this argument. Really grammar schools are havens of excellent behaviour at all times. Oh, and we're able to have different disciplinary procedures. News to me.

[Oblomov16]

Come on. MrsZ, asking OP what % of schools she's visited. Come on. That's not fair. I'm allowed an opinion and I'm not even a teacher.

[WalrusGumboot]

I agree with you OP. I wish that bad behaviour could be better addressed in mainstream schools but there seems to be no appetite for it (nor was there 20 years ago when I was at school).

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

When OP keeps referring to how she knows better because she's visited schools and is extrapolating from that, then I would say it is indeed fair.

[mrz]

Come on Oblomov I haven't asked the OP what percentage of comprehensive schools they have visited

[mrz]

And I assume you aren't asserting that every comprehensive is a den of poor behaviour full of "yobs" and that every grammar school is full if angelic pupils who never cross the line?

Do you need to be a teacher to have a view?

[noblegiraffe]

OP, you don't want grammar schools, you want No Excuses schools.

Try the Michaela Community School, it seems to fit the bill in terms of your behaviour requirements. It's a comprehensive.

mcsbrent.co.uk

What you should be campaigning for is more schools like that, not missing the mark with grammars.

[mrz]

http://mcsbrent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Behaviour-Policy-2015-16-2.docx

[TwoLeftSocks]

I'm getting confused, would you want the school entrance to be based on academic ability or behaviour?

[mrz]

The OPs argument seems to be that grammar schools promote better behaviour than comprehensives