Parents won't discipline children, schools are not allowed to discipline children, so grammar chools are the way forward.

[Longlost10]

The whole comprehensive system is dragged down by the financial, spiritual, moral, educational and professional cost of the huge number of total wasters in the student body. Those who disrupt lessons, ignore teachers, distract students, talk back, waste time, make paper aeroplanes out of worksheets, dawdle in late, don't bother to do their homework, don't come equipped, chat and fidget and generally make no attempt to learn. They are utterly selfish and just tink of nothing but enjoying themselves.They are pandered to and spoilt, offered endless chances, suck the system dry of money, time, energy, and resources. Teachers are held responsible for their imbecilic behaviour, and grind themselves into dust trying to work to change behavior which is under someone elses control entirely.

This is why I support grammar schools. It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs, and and incentive to behave well, and keep behaving well, as a grammar school student needs to maintain certain levels of behavior and achievement to remain a grammar school student.

So overall, the poor behavior goes down. Because a grammar school place is an incentive to behave properly, and so some bad behaviour improves.

In a comp, badly behaved pupils have nothing to lose. That changes in a grammar system.

And a large number of students can get away from the poor behaviour too. Of course there is some bad behaviour in grammar schools, but it isn't comparable.

So less bad behaviour, more learning, and fewer students affected by bad behaviour in others. Whats not to like??

Of course it doesn't solve the problem of having to put up with bad behaviour in secondary modern classrooms, but it doesn't make it any worse either.

[mumsneedwine]

So I'm lesson planning a year 11 Citizenship class (don't blame me, bloody government made it compulsory). My question to them is 'What should school do with students who disrupt lesson ? Why do you think this happens and how can school help to prevent your lessons being disrupted'. I will report back on what my 'yobs' say as I think they will be more inclusive then OP. Especially as I have several pickles in this class. Could be an interesting hour.

[Alfieisnoisy]

So what happens to children like my DS who behaves in class but is not academic? He is autistic and now in a special school but your post seems to suggest that he should be left floundering in schools which would lose all their brightest kids to the grammar school system leaving the non academic pupils and those with SEN struggling to cope in schools where there are disruptive kids.

What about those left behind who don't meet the criteria for grammar school? Are they not worth bothering with?

[Alfieisnoisy]

In fact do fuck off OP, you are posting stupid goody nonsense and you know it.

[cexuwaleozbu]

Comprehensive education system - starts from the premise that everyone gets educated, like it or not. Obviously more resources go to educating people who are more difficult to educate.

OR you can focus on the low-hanging fruit, concentrate on educating the most intelligent and/or enthusiastic. Warehouse the "too difficult" pile in a secondary modern or "technical academy" or whatever new buzz-phrase they make up.

Either of these choices is a valid and internally consistent position but politicians and think tanks should focus first on which plan they are going to follow in an open and honest way before proposing and debating specific strategies.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Children who have difficulty managing themselves or engaging effectively with education are not "yobs" or "pointless rubbish".

I believe that grammar schools have a role to play. But I don't think discounting children in non grammars is the way forward.

[Wellywife]

You go and mark, Mumsneedwine. Teachers' evenings evaporate so quickly!

Please don't count me as someone who would write any DC off as yobs. That's one of the reasons why I liked that school so much. Because the teachers there didn't. The DC were treated with respect and compassion (even when the DC didn't return the compliment!). The staffing levels were high; the DC got plenty of attention; there were cool down places for DC to go to when things got too much and 1:1 counselling if needed. But at the same time expectations were very high.

The intention was to prepare the DC to re-enter mainstream school if they would be able to succeed there but with extra back up too.

I wasn't there long enough to know the outcomes for most of the DC but I did see the difference it made to one boy that I knew from my previous mainstream TA role. He was a lovely boy but unable to control his 'explosions' for want of a better word. It became more problematic in juniors and other DC knew how to wind him up; so he went to the special school. When I caught up with him there he was a much more confident child with coping strategies to deal with his inner feelings. From what I hear he's doing fine now at a different mainstream school. Anecdotal I know but it impressed me.

[Longlost10]

What about those left behind who don't meet the criteria for grammar school? Are they not worth bothering with? stay where they are now, bad luck, but no worse off than currently, whilst many children will be better off.

[StealthPolarBear]

How dare you discount and devalue children like that? And the really shit thing is that I've seen someone else do similar on another thread tonight.

[Wellywife]

. Looking forward to the strategies your class can come up with Mumsneedwine!

[Longlost10]

Children who have difficulty managing themselves or engaging effectively with education are not "yobs" or "pointless rubbish"

actually some children are yobs, are you seriously trying to claim that is not true? And the pointless rubbish I was referring to was the millions of pounds of "behaviour management" policies and resources that effectively collude with the yobbishness

[Longlost10]

How dare you discount and devalue children like that? And the really shit thing is that I've seen someone else do similar on another thread tonight. here we go, hands thrown up in horror, I'm "discounting and devaluing children", rather than pointing out that this namby pambying culture is leaving us with exactly the amount of educational failure that we are prepared to pay for, that it is counter productive, and that anyone claiming that sad, disturbed or traumatised children can't learn self discipline only need look at our neighbouring countries, where the sadness, disturbance and trauma go beyond the worst nightmares of 99.9% of uk children, and yet LO and BEHOLD ..... self discipline and learning! a miracle??? no, I think not, just a different set of expectations and a culture of education, rather than of nurturing chipped shoulders.

[mumsneedwine]

Yes it's as easy as learning how to behave. Why did I never think of that !!

[Longlost10]

Yes it's as easy as learning how to behave.

yes, actually, throughout most of the world, it actually is

Why did I never think of that !!

because you've been suckered into the UK system, blinded and brain washed to the point where you can't see the bleeding obvious.

[GingerIvy]

People, really.... engaging in this nonsense? We all know the drill.... Step away and ignore.

[mumsneedwine]

I have worked in 5 countries, 2 in Europe, Australia and 2 in S America. And the same issues have been there in all. Children are angry and disruptive for a reason. But if you can just say behave and they do, well done.

[mumsneedwine]

Ah but Ginger if I do that I have to actually go away and mark and plan. And this is so much more fun . And gives me lots of lovely resources for my citizenship lesson. I'm allowed to use Mumsnet right ?

[GingerIvy]

mumsneedwine of course, I fully understand the whole "delay the marking" thing. You're clearly not taking the OP that seriously, thank god. Carry on, don't hurt yourself laughing at the lunacy.

[mumsneedwine]

It's been the most fun I've had this term (which started on Monday !!). I'm using the OPs quotes to show my kids how some people view them. Yobs !!!! V 80s. They prefer Gs.

[GreatPointIAgreeWithYouTotally]

Out of interest OP, do you think that a 'yob' is always destined to remain a 'yob'? Could their children ever be 'non yobs'? I'm interested in whether you think there is any point in educating disadvantaged people at all?

I think that the grammar school argument is shocking, to me it is clearly a retrograde step. Real comps work best in the absence of grammar schools or private schools-there is a true comprehensiveness which aids social mobility.

[UKsounding]

I hate to see children labelled as anything, including "yobs" but the fact is that some children behave like yobs in classrooms and disrupt the education of others.
Can we agree to separate children from their behaviour? "They behave like yobs", not "they are yobs".

[UKsounding]

While I fully appreciate that learning does not occur in a vacuum, and some children have hideous lives which causes them psychological/emotional distress leading to acting out in the one place where they feel secure, teachers are not social workers.
Teachers are not trained to be social workers.
Teachers do not have the resources to be social workers.
Teachers do not have the support to be social workers.
Teachers choose the profession of teaching which involves delivering education to ALL of the students in their classroom.
When teachers are doing the job of social workers for a few students who demand their attention, they are not educating the many non-demanding students in their classroom.
While I totally appreciate the empathy and caring articulated by many of the teachers on this thread, can I respectfully suggest that you missed your calling as social workers? In addition, while you do a job which you are not trained to do and are not equiped for, you collude with a system that does not employ enough caring, trained, professional educational social workers.
How about the teachers focus on being the best teachers that they can be for all of their students, and let the social workers do their job? Teachers unions would go nuts if social workers started delivering the curriculum, so how about you return the favour? Stop filling the incredibly important vacuum that currently exists by being amateur social workers and force the government to recognize that they need to put additional paraeducational professional in place so that all students can benefit from instruction which is what you are trained for.

[ReallyTired]

Teachers are on the front line of child protection. Child abuse is detected by school staff. All school staff have done child protection training and schools have a designated person who has more in depth training.

Incidentally child protection issues happen at naice grammar or private schools.

Teachers are in loco parentis. Their role is more than imparting knowledge.

[elephantoverthehill]

UKsounding teachers are not pretending to be social workers. Teachers have a duty of care, teachers have to report any worry about a child. If a teacher, or any 'frontline' worker suspects abuse, they have to report it. If anyone who engages with young or vunerable people suspects that a person may be in immediate danger they need to take the necessary steps, including calling the police if necessary. Would you accuse HCPs of 'pretending to be social workers?

[UKsounding]

Yes, child protection issues are often identified first by teaching staff who have a responsibility to report it - to those whose job/training equips them to deal with it. The responsibility is to report, and then get back to the job of teaching. Dealing with abuse, follow-up etc. is the job of the police and/or social services. Once reported, the expectation is that the teacher gets back to the job they are responsible for - curriculum delivery. The police/social services are not doing the teachers job while the teacher is being an amateur social worker.

Absolutely child protection issues happen in grammar and private schools. However, all teachers are required to do their job - report issues and then, in a very professional manner, get back to doing the job of teaching.

A professional teachers job is to be a teacher. Period. You are NOT that student's parent (no matter how shit their real parents are). You are in loco parenting you are not their parent! Your ro,e as a professional requires that you understand and acknowledge the boundaries of your ability to impact a child's life. You don't have access to the families history and background. You don't know what interactions a student has with other professionals. You only have access to what you are told. You aren't in a position to deal with a student holistically, not matter how much you want to.
Teachers have a role. You are the teacher of each and every one of your students, not just the ones that noisily demand your attention. When you are busy parenting a child or small number of children (and that is not your job) you are not teaching the rest (and that is your job). You have to accept that the role of a teacher has its limitations when it comes to any student, and you have to let other professionals do their job. Your responsibility is to do the best job of imparting knowledge that you can, because no other professional has that job. In return, you have to report and then let other professionals do their job.

ReallyTired You, and the other teachers here, sound like wonderful, caring human beings. But, if you truly want to do more than imparting knowledge (which is a true calling in its own right) then you owe it to yourself, your family and your non-noisy students to consider whether you would find a different role in kids lives more fulfilling.