Parents won't discipline children, schools are not allowed to discipline children, so grammar chools are the way forward.

[Longlost10]

The whole comprehensive system is dragged down by the financial, spiritual, moral, educational and professional cost of the huge number of total wasters in the student body. Those who disrupt lessons, ignore teachers, distract students, talk back, waste time, make paper aeroplanes out of worksheets, dawdle in late, don't bother to do their homework, don't come equipped, chat and fidget and generally make no attempt to learn. They are utterly selfish and just tink of nothing but enjoying themselves.They are pandered to and spoilt, offered endless chances, suck the system dry of money, time, energy, and resources. Teachers are held responsible for their imbecilic behaviour, and grind themselves into dust trying to work to change behavior which is under someone elses control entirely.

This is why I support grammar schools. It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs, and and incentive to behave well, and keep behaving well, as a grammar school student needs to maintain certain levels of behavior and achievement to remain a grammar school student.

So overall, the poor behavior goes down. Because a grammar school place is an incentive to behave properly, and so some bad behaviour improves.

In a comp, badly behaved pupils have nothing to lose. That changes in a grammar system.

And a large number of students can get away from the poor behaviour too. Of course there is some bad behaviour in grammar schools, but it isn't comparable.

So less bad behaviour, more learning, and fewer students affected by bad behaviour in others. Whats not to like??

Of course it doesn't solve the problem of having to put up with bad behaviour in secondary modern classrooms, but it doesn't make it any worse either.

[Longlost10]

You can't compare uk schools with a school in an East African war zone. There, those students in scholl are the lucky ones in their community.

refugees. orphaned in traumatic circumstances, forced to witness, commit and be subjected too extremely physical and sexual violence? uneducated until rescued from militia? malnurished, no history of medical care?

No, as I explained, this was a school for rescued child soldiers, aged 6-16, they had not ever been lucky. Mostly they were without any known family, and slept on the floor of the classroom.

Here, most disaffected students are amongst the most unlucky for whatever reason. actually, largely they are not. and even if they are, it really doesn't excuse their behaviour.

[Alfieisnoisy]

the special needs lobby is as always very vocal

Anyone making such a crass comment obviously hasn't had the experience of trying to get adequate support in place for their child.

My son is autistic and really struggled in mainstream...he was t disruptive but left the school each day grey faced and shut down emotionally and physically. Over a year his grades also dropped massively . I had to fight tooth and nail to get him moved to a more suitable setting where he is now flourishing and his grades are improving.

What annoys me more than anything is that schools frequently do not realise how much the lack of provision and support impacts upon the child. The school my son attended failed to see that my son was floundering and drowning in the mainstream system. Thankfully I COULD see it and I fought to get him out. What of the children left behind though? Is it any wonder some become utterly disaffected and begin acting out?

I don't disagree that some children experience very ineffectual parenting but I believe that is a minority.

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

People seem to be unaware that changes to funding have had a larger impact on schools with sixth forms (like my grammar) and that we also have students with SEN.
There is a huge funding shortfall in all areas of education. Throwing it away on a vanity project like this when there are departments that can't afford the materials for the new specifications (like one of mine) is shameful. That's right, there's a department in a grammar school where we can't afford the textbooks for the students.

[Alfieisnoisy]

And that is terrible too Donna.

No teacher should have to be scrabbling about for vital resources. It's a hard enough job already.

Funding needs to increase right across the board.

[GreenGoth89]

Longlost - you sound utterly entitled and like you have no experience of living in a deprived community let alone being deprived yourself. We already have streaming to sort by ability, and this often sorts those who want to learn from those who don't. Do you not think there are time wasters in grammar schools? My DP went to one after being able to scrape through his 11+ and the same with his GCSEs and flunked out of college. It makes no difference to the desire for learning it's just taking those with ability above those without.

[Longlost10]

like you have no experience of living in a deprived community let alone being deprived yourself. you haven't read the thread then

[Longlost10]

greengoth, it is precisely because i have had so much experience of the worst possible deprivation that I am so deeply shocked at the appalling behaviour and sense of entitlement that I've come back to in UK schools. I just can't beleive it. We have gone so far wrong that i find it difficult to express in words how depraved we actually are.

[roundaboutthetown]

So you would "penalise" badly behaved grammar school children by sending them to a secondary modern with the other 75% of the country? Thus advertising that 75% of children are being penalised already by being there in such schools?... Why sort this by academic selection if the problem is bad behaviour?? Surely what you really want, OP, is schools which select on behaviour, not academic ability?...

As for your tiresome going on about teaching in schools for rescued child soldiers, I'm afraid I don't think we ought to be trying to learn lessons from countries which allow such gross inequalities that the majority of their populations are malnourished and brutalised, even if that does mean they behave well for teachers in school.

[Longlost10]

As for your tiresome going on about teaching in schools for rescued child soldiers, I'm afraid I don't think we ought to be trying to learn lessons from countries which allow such gross inequalities that the majority of their populations are malnourished and brutalised, even if that does mean they behave well for teachers in school.

what about learning lessons in teaching children to concentrate, pay attention, value their education, try their best, work hard, achieve well and learn? Do you not think we should be aspiring to teaching our children this? Does it not bother you that a child who enters education for the first time at 10, has no access to books, resources, chairs even, can so easily be ahead of our children by age 14, without any family support what so ever, or even a bed to sleep on? Doesn't that indicate to you that we have stuffed up massively? Sorry if you find the facts tiresome.

[roundaboutthetown]

Strangely, I don't think forcing our children to become child soldiers and to murder other people is a good way to teach them self-discipline and skills of concentration... Other methods, maybe, but clearly none to be learned from where you taught, as you apparently didn't need to teach these skills to the children you taught, from what you say.

[Longlost10]

Strangely, I don't think forcing our children to become child soldiers and to murder other people is a good way to teach them self-discipline and skills of concentration..

obviously not, but the point is that we excuse and cosset unhappy angry children, and convince ourselves that they cannot be expected to behave, whereas worldwide, the overwelming evidence is that such excuses are completely invalid, and children are perfectly capable of taking responsibility for their behaviour, what ever their back ground. In any case, most poor behavious in British schools is from very privileged children, but that is beside the point. The point is, we have many of the best of children in the world, but the worst behaved.

[Longlost10]

The education system provides vast riches in terms of resources and support, and staffing, and uk kids basically piss on it, and people say, o, its not their fault, they can't help it, without being able to see the obvious, we have the behaviour that we are prepared to fund.

[OTheHugeManatee]

I agree with the OP that there are countries with far fewer resources and children with far more dangerous and disrupted lives but that still have an attitude to education that puts the prevailing UK one to shame. I also agree that there is a culture of excuse-making that enables this. It is strange that someone posting about this from their experience of education in the UK and abroad should be called 'entitled', 'goady' or (like it's the worst thing in the world) 'right wing'

[mathsmum314]

I think as a society we tend to make 'the state' responsible for everything. Its my belief we should put that burden back on parents. If a child wont wear the right uniform at school, its the parents fault, NOT the schools. And we should punish the parents. It might not be popular but I think the country as a whole would be better off it we blamed parents for not teaching their children to read, rather that the education system (for example).

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

I don't think we do make excuses actually. Some parents might. Schools do not. I'm sorry but some students do have 'reasons' for their behaviour. I went to a grammar school, I didn't do any homework at all if I could help it. Why? I was deeply unhappy (depressed) and hugely anxious about failing so didn't even try. This wasn't ever picked up by the school (my mum let them know I was self-harming) even when my arms were a mess of scars. Schools are SO much better at identifying and dealing with these things now. Should I have been kicked out?

[roundaboutthetown]

I see very little that is positive or healthy in the impeccable behaviour of severely abused children in corrupt and violent countries. Also, I do not think the evidence from around the world does point towards all children being capable of taking full responsibility for their behaviour, regardless of background. Yes, I think some children in this country are bad mannered and disruptive, and some with little good excuse, but in the schools my children attend, I do not recognise the picture being painted of schools being dragged down by time wasters. In schools where bad behaviour is a problem, I agree something needs to be done about this, but do not believe reduced school funding, taking away the beds they sleep in and forcing them into war situations is the way to cow them into submission.

[roundaboutthetown]

Nor do I think grammar schools are the solution.

[portico]

Longlost10 said:

"This is why I support grammar schools. It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs, and and incentive to behave well, and keep behaving well, as a grammar school student needs to maintain certain levels of behavior and achievement to remain a grammar school student.

Believe me kids at grammar school are no worse and no better than kids at comprehensive school. Both my ds are at grammar school. Ds1 is not focussed and garners behaviour points the same way a model pupil collects merit points. Ds1, a Y7, remarked how the sixth formers barged into the dinner queues, flipped a finger at the dinner lady, and were indiscriminately using the "f" word.

[Longlost10]

it isn't anything like as bad as in comps, though portico. and grammars are an incentive to behave better, so overall, the poor behaviour decreases.

[mrz]

Exactly how many comprehensive schools have you visited during your research?

[mathsmum314]

*This wasn't ever picked up by the school (my mum let them know I was self-harming) even when my arms were a mess of scars. Schools are SO much better at identifying and dealing with these things now"

Obviously a traumatic subject, but why do you say its not your parents responsibility, its seems weird to say your mum just handed it over to the school. Anxiety about failing is related to unrealistic parental expectations.

[Longlost10]

I don't know Mrz. maybe around 40?

[PickAChew]

Yeah, cos clever children are never disruptive.

[user1471734618]

" It gives the top 25% the opportunity to get away from these yobs "

But someone with a lower IQ could be a perfectly good cooperative pupil. What are you talking about? What is so special about the 'top 25 per cent'? Who is to say IQ = good behaviour?

[DoctorDonnaNoble]

Maths- it had absolutely NOTHING to do with my parents expectations of me. Nothing. I'd like to think as a form tutor I'd notice if one of my form was self harming. In fact, I have.
I'm interested though in this continued insisting that behaviour is better in grammar schools. It isn't necessarily. I'm unsure how the mere existence of a grammar is meant to incentivise better behaviour. It certainly didn't incentivise the boys expelled from our partner grammar in my year when we were in year 9. You could argue that it's easier for them to misbehave as the other local schools are happy to snap up expelled grammar students.