Head teachers debate changes to long summer break...

[HercShipwright]

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/04/schools-teaching?CMP=twt_fd

I used the article's headline as my thread title, but it doesn't adequately represent the thrust of the article - it seems that they are considering advocating not just shortening the long summer break but also the staggering of holidays around the country. I'm not sure this could ever work, given the rigid nature of public exam dates, but my main concern is what would happen to thinks like national youth music ensembles, national youth drama and dance things, summer schools etc. If holidays were mixed up all over the country, how would they be able to organise and run these so that every kid had the opportunity to audition and attend? It seems to me that all the current ideas we are hearing about shaking things up - longer school days, changed holidays - strike (perhaps not intentionally) at arts ed. And maybe sports development too. Very worrying.

[hedgetrimmer]

in my mind it makes more sense to have one long summer holiday,its usually warmer,and i think kids need that long break to reboot before starting a new school year.

In america they have 2-3 months off,i would of loved that.I think we need to remember school is about the kids,not childcare.

[HercShipwright]

As pictures says, it's not about being elite. It's about having access to the arts. In fact, many schools don't have good or even existing drama and music departments. Many LEAs don't organise things at all. Arts ed in this country is now primarily done through summer schools etc for those who don't live in big conurbations. I'm not for one moment suggesting the school year should be arranged round these things though, I'm pointing out that if we have staggered holidays many of them will cease to exist and arts ed will become the sole province of those who live in big connotations, or who are rich. I don't think I'm opposed to shorter and more frequent holidays, I am opposed to staggering them.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Herc

I totally agree about the LA's not organising much or anything at all. We are very lucky here as music especially is seen as beneficial for dc and our provision is excellent. It is really cheap as well, £35 per term will pay for as many groups as you want to take. Lessons are similarly priced to the public sector though and they close over school hols.
I agree that staggered holidays would make it difficult for many private sector provision and charitable organisations to function.
Maybe shorter holidays would benefit many people just as well as staggering them would.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Tansie

H.ed is not a luxury afforded by a sahp, plenty of people work around H.ed. Just thought I'd mention this.

[Tansie]

hedge - you would have loved that.... see, 2-3 months off and you forget everything you were taught

Something to recall, 4, 3, and 2 years ago summer was March to June! Feet of rain by August!

You really cannot generalise about having one long summer holiday and 'the better weather' when the direness of the weather drove my family to vow to go to the Med every year! Whereas we enjoyed lovely Whitsun holidays camping in the UK.

So, if you had 2 weeks off around Whitsun, 2 in October and 4 over August, I'd think you'd be spreading your odds of decent weather rather better than relying on late July to the start of September, myself.

2 debates are at work here: More and shorter, even-length terms versus staggering holidays.

It wouldn't worry me if my LEA did have different hols to the adjoining one; but it would be a pain if you chose a school other than your local one for different DC, which happened to be in a different LEA.

[MGMidget]

The potential problems could be:
a) what if you have DC in different schools which have different holiday timetables?
b) out of school holiday clubs may not be so readily available if there's less demand in some weeks owing to fewer schools being on holiday. On the other hand it may just change the nature of holiday clubs as they may become smaller but able to operate for more weeks of the year if schools in the same region have staggered their holidays.
c) if the staggering of holidays is regional (e.g. London being one region for example) it will be a bigger problem for employers if there are fewer weeks of summer holiday when all parents want to book their holidays. Some parents may be left disappointed by being refused holiday at that time.

[manicinsomniac]

I love the long Summer break and really wouldn't want it to end.

But that is for selfish reasons. I know there are children who come back to school after the break having been taken nowhere and done nothing much other than watch tv. Many children also fall back academically over the Summer.

I find it odd to use residential Arts programmes as such a key reason against the change (and I say that as a performing arts teacher and dancer). I have both run and used many such programmes and love them. My own children love them too. They are immensely valuable to the children they serve. But those children constitute such a tiny minority of children as to render them irrelevant to a national debate. Most children do not do this kind of thing. Many would be able to run anyway, especially on a local or even regional basis. Some national organisations could run a choice of several different weeks.

In summary, I would hate a change. My children would hate a change. But, on average, I suspect it might be socially and academically beneficial to children as a whole.

[Roseformeplease]

I too love the long summer holidays. However, putting aside arguments about creative arts courses adn cheap holidays, there are real issues with the poorest and / or those whose parents do not plan their holidays or supervise them closely.

1. There is a real learning dip, particularly amongst the least able and most economically disadvantaged. Children can lose up to year in reading age over the summer and often completely forget the basic things that have taken so long to teach.
   

1. Many do not read books on the beach, but play computer games or watch telly, leaving them inactive and bored.
   

1. Families with little money are not always able to offer interesting holiday opportunities.
   

1. I know that there are free things to do but that supposes you are not fed up / depressed / in a grindingly awful job / relying on poor quality (or non existent) childcare.
   

1. Crime goes up in some areas in the longer holidays - bored teens often get into trouble.
   

Maybe the answer is far better holiday provision in terms of catch up summer schools, childcare etc. However, schools have a transport infrastructure to get children there - holiday clubs do not. Also, you cannot compel someone to put their child into a holiday club and, in some families, they need the structure the school day offers to give children a fighting chance of using education to better their chances.

[rabbitstew]

So, was it always the case that the majority suffered as a result of long summer holidays and we've only just noticed? Or has the quality of life of families significantly diminished in the last 50 years, to the point that it is now better for the majority of children to be in school for as much of the day as possible and for as much of the year as possible (without an increase in funding for education, meaning that provision will increasingly become crap, but at least it will be long-hours crapness)?

[rollonthesummer]

Yes, private schools have long holidays but also long days (which engender howls of protest from many state parents as they'd hate for their own primary schoolers to be in school from 8am to 5 or 6pm every day)- but this is how the schools cram the curriculum in.

The girl next door goes to private school-they leave to drive her to school at exactly the same time we leave (we walk round the corner to the state primary) and get back within minutes of us getting back. They don't all do 8-6!

[TheWordFactory]

rabbit I don't think the majority suufer(ed) ... but a sizable minority always did.

This isn't a new debate.

However, I suspect things are coming to a pinacle because a. many families now have two full time working parents, sometimes seperated. b. the employment prospects of those who do poorly in education are at an all time low.

[HercShipwright]

But staggering holidays probably won't help families with 2 WFT parents.

There are two issues here - shortening the holidays (might be a good idea, might have some negative consequences) and staggering holidays no matter what length they are - negative consequences likely to far outweigh any positive ones.

[TheWordFactory]

Agreed herc

I have two DC in different schools were often get different holidays. They usually overlap at some point IYSWIM, but they make for very long periods when one has to sort them out.

I'm lucky with my flexibility, but others must dread it.

[TheWordFactory]

Would I want them any shorter?

Well again, I'm very flexible so it's not too much of a problem. If we had six weeks like state schools that would seem more than fine, I think. Eight always seems to be verging on a bit too much, especially if we get a wet Summer.

[HercShipwright]

The flexibility over Baker days that schools have in this county is already a right pain. DD1's school dots them about the term then usually goes on to the bitter end in July. DS and DD2's school tack them on at the end of term and thus finish earlier. I'm waiting to hear whether DD1 will get permission to miss the last 3 days of summer term so she can go on a thing.

[HercShipwright]

I'd be fine with dropping to 5 or even 4 weeks in the summer so long as they were the same 4 or 5 weeks. I can see how people working in offices where it's difficult to get 2 weeks off in a 6 week window might find it more difficult to get 2 weeks off in a 4 week window though. And people with kids doing exams etc might not want to go away earlier in the year. I personally wouldn't mind having a break in September/early October though, but that's because we holiday in the UK and the weather seems to be consistently ok then.

[rabbitstew]

In other words, wordfactory, the majority are being asked to consider embracing changes which will benefit a minority, albeit an expanding minority, and by benefit, we mean hopefully make marginally less crap for that minority whilst not really improving things for the majority, just making it easier for the majority of children to end up with a quality of life more akin to that of the minority?

[ShoeWhore]

Well said roseformeplease

Some children are seriously disadvantaged by the very long break over the summer. Surely this is much more important than elite summer schools for a very privileged few?

I do agree that children need a decent break in the summer but I'm not convinced it needs to be 6 weeks long. I would be in favour of shortening the long summer holiday to 4 weeks and adding an extra week in May and maybe October. I think this would actually give families many more options in terms of holidays, still leave plenty of time for other activities and more importantly hopefully reduce the impact on the children disadvantaged by the current arrangements?

[HercShipwright]

Some people seem to have problems with reading comprehension. :(

[ShoeWhore]

Do you mean me?

[TheWordFactory]

rabbit I think that's about the size of it, though how big the majority and minorty are in relative size to one another, I couldn't say.

What I do know is that many independent schools will almost certainly not fall in line, which will make the divide between state and private even greater.

Which would be a good or a bad thing, depending on ones view point, I guess.

[Roseformeplease]

If all schools had shorter summer holidays, then other holidays would have to be longer. You might be able to have, for example, 3 weeks at Christmas or even (as we do in Scotland) 2 weeks in October. The overall holidays would be the same, they would just be a bit more spread out. Also, in Scotland, we don't really have half terms in the same way. We have a long weekend in Feb (where I am) and in the summer term we only get the first May bank holiday, but we do finish at the end of June, going back mid August. All in all there are 12 weeks (2 Christmas, 2 Easter, 6 Summer, 2 October) plus 3 extra single days (2 in Feb, 1 in May) although here too it varies by Council Area.

I would love to have some time in May / June off (fab weather here) or to extend the October holiday by a week (cheap to travel overseas) or to have a longer Christmas. All of these would help those who struggle with the long summer but have no real impact on my cossetted, much monitored children.

[rollonthesummer]

I like having 6 weeks in July and August when the weather is nice-I don't want extra time in October or December!

[rabbitstew]

The shorter the summer holiday, surely the harder it will be for more parents to get any of the summer holiday off work, as there will be less time to stagger summer holiday time off with other work colleagues? As already pointed out, most people rather like having time off in the summer, whether they stay home, holiday in the UK or go overseas - it's mainly only people with enough cash to go somewhere warm, or to go ski-ing, who delight in a winter holiday (after all, staying home in the winter either requires you to spend more money on your home heating and food bill, or be miserable and cold at home with nowhere to go). Also, it may be bearable being in school in mid-August in Scotland, but in the South of England in old school buildings (or new ones with excessive insulation and heating you can't turn off...), it can be stifling - not at all a good environment for actually learning anything.

I wouldn't favour compulsory change for all without exceptionally good scientific evidence it is genuinely worthwhile for the majority. I wouldn't want schools jumping in and discovering a whole host of unintended consequences. Also, at the moment, there seems to be some confusion as to the real benefits - are they supposed to be educational benefits for the children, or childcare and holiday-cost benefits for the adults?

[rollonthesummer]

I agree with every word, Rabbitstew. Reasons seem to be:


The current long summer is archaic and based on kids taking in the harvest. This doesn't explain why private/public schools have even longer ones and do well academically! I doubt they ever helped with the harvest!

Children in poverty have miserable summers. Possibly true-but plenty don't. Is a mass change for all necessarily a good idea?

Children regress over the summer. I'd say some-not all. Maybe. Would a 4 week holiday still do this? Many office workers need a day or two after a holiday to get back into the swing!

Childcare is too expensive. I don't think this is the problem of the school to solve.

Teachers get lots of holiday and It's not fair!

I think last point is the problem!