Head teachers debate changes to long summer break...

[HercShipwright]

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/04/schools-teaching?CMP=twt_fd

I used the article's headline as my thread title, but it doesn't adequately represent the thrust of the article - it seems that they are considering advocating not just shortening the long summer break but also the staggering of holidays around the country. I'm not sure this could ever work, given the rigid nature of public exam dates, but my main concern is what would happen to thinks like national youth music ensembles, national youth drama and dance things, summer schools etc. If holidays were mixed up all over the country, how would they be able to organise and run these so that every kid had the opportunity to audition and attend? It seems to me that all the current ideas we are hearing about shaking things up - longer school days, changed holidays - strike (perhaps not intentionally) at arts ed. And maybe sports development too. Very worrying.

[HercShipwright]

morethan You're wrong. Some of them are double dear, some are not. Some are funded and offer bursaries etc to people on low incomes.

You can't compare Greater Manchester - the second or third biggest conurbation in the country - with living in the back of beyond. It might be beyond the pale but it's not isolated. Essentially, you are saying you live close to a big conservatoire so you're fine. Well, bully for you. Other people don't live in Manchester. MOST other people don't live in Manchester.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

More than - I disagree with you.

For a start all the events you speak of would not be open to children from Stockport who have different holidays than Manchester. Staffs & Cheshire have different holidays too.

A theatre company dd used to be involved with in Stockport encountered this problem with half terms & Easter.

YMT UK & NYMT may be elite- but many other organisations running are not.

[HercShipwright]

Pictures they do get some funding though (not necessarily public). Which means they can subsidise fees for those who need it. Same with other national things. Remove the national tag and you run the risk of losing sponsorship and donations etc.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I meant elite in terms of entry standards

It's a bit like YBSS (Yorkshire Ballet scholars) ok it has Yorkshire in the title but it is very much an international summer school attracting the most talented young dancers.

It's very expensive but they have around 30 or so scholarships funded by various organisations & individuals).

[DeWee]

Staggering holidays can be a nightmare for parents. We're on the boarder of two counties, one of which has holidays totally out of sync with most of the country (I think it does a 5 term year). I have a friend whose dc are each side of the boarder. Last year she had no half terms the same, only the Easter weekend in common, only 2 weeks of the summer holiday. Christmas managed a whole 10 days om common though.

And personally, both as a child and as a parent, I think the long holiday is needed to recharge their batteries. I used to spend the first few days of each holiday ill very often, and really needed the long break to sort myself out.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound arsy, its just a passion with me.
One of the orgs dd is involved with is by audition only but does include anybody who are able to attend and people come from as far as the lake district to south of Birmingham.
They use Manchester holidays, so if you are in a different area and are on holiday you are still expected to attend. This is made clear from the offset.
I was not aware of the bursaries or support for the National organisations, not on a grand scale anyway, so apologies there. I just read a small amount were available and presumed these were for a few lucky ones, not everybody.
None of the activities I mentioned were to do with a conservatoire and dd does nothing here, apart from attend the odd concert as an audience member.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It's ok it's just been frustrating for dd not being able to do holiday courses this year due to the different holidays.

One in Birmingham didn't run as it wasn't viable & dd & he friends were in school that week- the other at Tring we couldn't physically get here there because her brother was still in school.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It's ok it's just been frustrating for dd not being able to do holiday courses this year due to the different holidays.

One in Birmingham didn't run as it wasn't viable & dd & he friends were in school that week- the other at Tring we couldn't physically get here there because her brother was still in school.

[HercShipwright]

Saying that people from Birmingham can get to a thing in Manchester is rather missing the point. If people are travelling from Birmingham to a non funded thing in Manchester on a regular basis in term time they are obviously pretty well off. And also, they also live in a large conurbation with stuff you can do all the time. Also (again) Birmingham is hardly the most southerly part of the country. The 'mid' in midlands should be the clue there.

There are many people for whom the practical, logistical and financial reality is that they can only do stuff like that during the holidays, because there is nothing regular even remotely local to where they live. If you take the national element away from these things, they will lose funding, sponsorship, donations..and the kids from further away won't be able to attend either for financial reasons or because of holiday date discrepancies (if we are given staggered holidays in the future).

[morethanpotatoprints]

I think if they choose to have separate holidays by school and not area a lot of local provision will go too.
LA county rely on everybody having the same holidays as at youth level they organise residentials and workshops.
The dc are allowed time out because they all have the same holiday and it can be planned not to interfere with anything planned by schools.
It would be a logistical nightmare if everybody had different holidays locally.
You also couldn't force people to attend rehearsals during holiday times which would be difficult.
It's the same problem as the idea of making the school day longer, the logistics need thought.

[HercShipwright]

Many LAs don't organise anything. More may stop organising things in the future because of Gove's suggestions that they stop doing so.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Ah, Herc

I see what you are talking about now, and agree with you.
Is this not a problem already with different areas having different holidays, or are they usually placed in the middle to accommodate everybody.
I have seen with dds choir that even just within a 50 mile radius the holidays are different and some have to forgo a family holiday during certain weeks to ensure they make rehearsals.

[HercShipwright]

It can be a bit of a problem now, because schools can choose when to have their Baker days so often there are a few days difference between start and stop dates. DD1 wants to go on a thing which starts before her school term ends (they have their Baker days sporadically during term, unlike DSs school which tags them on at the end for a quick summer getaway) and she may not get permission. If holidays were substantially staggered this sort of thing would happen more often, to more people, and might make some of the sorts of thing we are talking about impractical to run any more.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It's only really a problem at the moment during easter & half term (& only seems to have been an issue the last couple if years)

If this is extended into summer it will cause much bigger problems.

[Tansie]

Can I just ask here: How many of us have DC that regularly attend elite summer schools in any subject at all? I don't mean PGL or YHA, I don't mean 'Hey, I see the church hall are doing a week of stage-craft/tennis coaching if you feel like going along, darling'- I mean the real McCoy; teh genuinely CV'able stuff that opens doors..

Even on MN, I'd doubt that constituted many DC. Arranging the school year around this tiny minority of DC hardly sounds fair.

As for 'the great unwind'- by week 3, let alone 5 of most holiday clubs, most DC have had well and truly enough. You've had to drag them up sometimes earlier than a school day to get there and the activities are run by a bunch of well meaning teenagers.

And as for HE, well that's luxury akin to SAHM for most people, isn't it?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Why does it have to be elite to be important. Dd has along with thousands of others up & down the country attended her local dance school/stagecoach/local theatre group summer school.

It's the only opportunity done kids get to do this stuff.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

She's never ever ever attended an activity run by a bunch of teenagers either- just quailed experienced leaders.

[ToffeeMoon]

Six weeks is nothing. Most countries have a lot longer in the summer. In the US they have twice that.

What do you do if your children are at different schools? How do you arrange time off work/childcare if you frequently have at least one child at home?

[Tansie]

Yes, sadly, if you have set your life up in a rural area, such things might be the only chance a DC gets. Most secondary schools do have a music and drama department, however. And yes, around here, Stagecoach actually provided year round tuition, usually on Saturday for 4 or so hours. And the local youth theatres train, audition and rehearse all year round, too. Doesn't yours? The nearest is probably 13 miles away; but I'd drive that if my DC were interested.

My DC, for instance, can't access a Spanish summer school, or a summer Smallpeice Trust engineering course, but I don't expect the school year to be organised in such a way that I can access these.

It would be lovely if all DC could have access to all things, but life's not like that.

[ToffeeMoon]

I also think teachers really need the long summer break. Teaching, if done well, is back-breaking and I really believe teachers need to recuperate and distance themselves from the very intense, personal role they play in our children's lives. My DF was a teacher. Lived and breathed it. My god he needed the summer break.

[Tansie]

Which is why it's interesting that the NAHT are even debating it! Until recently, they wouldn't go near it.

Do you think it's something to do with the longer hours many academies are now offering? That 'change is in the air'?

[Ludways]

Sports have national youth championships in the summer break, it would ruin extra curricular activities for children.

[TheWordFactory]

I recall reading some research that showed the long school holidays actively benefit more advanataged DC, whereas they actively hinder the less advanataged DC.

This is why the KIP schools in the US keep their school holidays as short as possible. They seek to reduce that educational gap wherever possible.

[wishingchair]

Whilst I get that shorter holidays is easier for working parents to manage (I am one), I imagine it would be a nightmare for employers. Everyone trying to book time off over a 4 week period rather than 6 weeks. And assuming you're a local employer (ie your staff aren't commuters), they're all going to have exactly the same timing of holidays as all kids will be in the same local authority.

[ManWithNoName]

All I see in my town in summer holidays is older secondary school kids hanging about on the streets and in shopping centres. Parents of younger children having to both go out to work and paying for holiday clubs or spreading their holidays over the summer or juggling play dates with other parents.

Really the whole 'idyllic summer holiday' thing doesn't happen for many kids now where both (or even a lone parent) has to work. With increasing amounts of 'zero contract' hour jobs and other forms of unstable 'on call' type work there just isn't any place for 6 weeks of summer holiday in many households.

NearTheWindymill put it very well.

"It's easy to forget I think that 6 weeks' holiday for many many children is 6 weeks in front of the TV, 6 weeks without a Free School meal, 6 weeks without a book, 6 weeks without anyone taking much of an interest in them. "