WHY the general assumption that private schools are better?

[tootsietoo]

I know this is similar to other recent threads, but slightly different!

I know very little about education - never worked in the sector, don't have many friends working in it, never been interested til children arrived! However, in my limited experience (DDs 6&7 at local primary school) the level of professionalism of the teachers is impressive! There seems to be such a comprehensive structure for planning progression and for assessing children's attainment, whilst the teachers seem to have the freedom to work with the children to inspire them in that they choose topics which interest them and can tailor classes and working groups to match children's abilities.

Yet within my group of friends there seems to be this inbuilt assumption that if you ever can pull enough cash in then off to private school your children will go. I also frequently read on here that the existence of private schools is unfair because it means only a few children will have the best opportunities. Which seems to assume that all private schools offer the best opportunities.

Is this a hangover from the 70s and 80s when we all grew up? Were state schools much worse then? Why is it just assumed that private schools offer the best education? I know private schools have more money therefore usually have the glitzy facilities, but surely it is down to the person standing in front of the children day in day out who is the really important part? I recall that at my small private girls day school I experienced the most inept teaching methods imaginable and I am told that at private schools today there is no requirement for teachers to be qualified! I do appreciate that my children are at a good school (that is, classified by ofsted as "good"), but are they all that unusual?

[happygardening]

And for boarding children school must have a huge impact, but then if as parents you choose to board your children you are likely to already have a certain mind set that will be having a impact.

[mummytime]

People like to think that they are getting something when they pay more.

Someone I know's SIL was very cross when she heard about our local State school and said "You shouldn't get those facilities unless you pay".

Often people don't have time to make a choice - so use price as a short cut. How exactly do you choose which Tomato Ketchup to buy out of maybe 30 different bottles in the supermarket?

[happygardening]

Yes rabbit your right it is all about money.

[mummytime]

Happygardening - BTW I have been phoned by teachers at DCs state schools any time between 7:30 am to 6:30 or later PM, and emailed even later/earlier.

[TheWordFactory]

rabit yes certainly. Cold hard cash is now worth far more than loose characteristics once considered 'middle class'. I think the old elite now has to compete with the global elite, the private day school has now taken the place of the grammar school and the lower middle class find themselves squarely with the working classes (not that they would ever admit that).

[FallenAngel22]

My DD is at a selective private. Before we had her we bought a house in a cheaper area not caring a jot about schools. When it came to choosing 3 out of 4 of the schools in our catchment were in special measures. We went to look around them and it was chaos of varying degrees.

The top performing primary in the county but not in our catchment is massively oversubscribed and we were advised that even if we moved, we wouldn't get a place. I then did some work experience at said school and the classes were so large, they were split into groups and some were working/running amok in the corridors whilst the poor teacher and TA didn't know what to do.

If I had my time again I wouldn't go down the private route as we sacrifice alot to keep her there. That said she is our only child and doing well so we're happy with our choice for now.

[happygardening]

Well Nocomet IME unless your at a special dyslexic independent school (with a large price tag attached) which most dyslexics don't need, the needs of moderately dyslexic children are not met any better in the private sector than the state sector. These children are misunderstood significantly under perform in both.

[PersonOfInterest]

The teachers in my dc's state school are brilliant.

If they had smaller class sizes to manage they would be even better.

There is a rotten apple poor teacher in the school and I'm aware of several incidents that have taken place, one of them serious over the last few years. I don't believe she'd still have her job if she was working in a private school.

[lighthouseshelfduster]

I think it's probably like anything else, like buying a Tripp Trapp, say - when enough people choose to buy one and talk about choosing one and quite a few (not all) talk about being glad they've got one, the aggregate of individual opinions becomes a general assumption that they're the best thing to get.

That general assumption tells you nothing about how good one will be for any individual family though - it could be completely wrong, not fit the space and cause you to stub your toe fifty times a day.

It also tells you nothing about whether people who could buy Tripp Trapps would be stupid not to get one - you can't extrapolate from that and say everyone who can possibly afford it should get one.

And it tells you nothing about whether the people who make Tripp Trapps are better than the people who make other chairs, or whether the people who buy them are more worthy and moral and intelligent than people who don't (though it does tell you something about whether they can afford it or not, of course).

It's possible to acknowledge that spending a lot of money on a Tripp Trapp gets you something more than you'd get on a different chair, without it being necessarily the best value for money for everyone who buys one.

And there's a difference between sharing the fact that you think your Tripp Trapp is great and implying that other chairs will traumatise children and are inherently bad and dangerous, which is where a lazy general assumption that Tripp Trapps are best can lead, if people don't give themselves occasional reality checks.

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

OP - this will descend into the usual bunfight with chippy people making sarky remarks. FWIW, having attended a public school for most of my education (and a state school for one year only), my impressions were:

• Smaller class sizes mean more attention paid to each pupil (maximum of 8 per class in my school)
  

• Teachers can be disciplined - and as the state doesn't pay their wages, they're often paid more and so the competition for jobs is fierce and you get great and very experienced teachers who are passionate about what they do
  

• Facilities are very good
  

• Old-fashioned discipline in the classroom. Children aren't allowed to swear, or be rude, or violent and are taught discipline and respect. I was shocked to hear a state school friend say that in her class, being academic would get you teased. In my school, people that did really well were admired - all of the popular children were really clever
  

• More attention paid to results and no dragging the class down to the lowest common denominator. A public school will have extra funds to push the brightest students, as well as to support those that need extra help without the whole class having to slow to their pace
  

• All public schools that I'm aware of go in for competitive sports / academia / music etc. I know that some state schools do this too but some also appear to think competition is a bad thing.
  

In short, I know there are some excellent state schools out there. It's just that with a public school, you can guarantee this kind of standard long-term and not have to move next door to the state school you want to get into the catchment area. It would be silly to say that no state schools measure up but by and large the public schools turn out well-rounded, polite and successful graduates because of the attention each child gets. I wouldn't be happy with my DS being lost in a class of 25 children, nor with the idea that he wouldn't be given a workload heavy enough to challenge him or that he might (might - I know that some state schools do have great sporting facilities etc) not be given the chance to try more unusual sports etc. And in schools where basic manners aren't enforced (where children talk back to teachers for example), I can't help but worry that would rub off on him.

I think an awful lot of these arguments come down to the fact that some people resent the idea that others have worked very hard and been successful and decide to spend the fruits of their labours on their children's education. Odd, don't you think?

[happygardening]

Well mummy your lucky and do they contact you in the holidays, at weekends etc when most of us are around? I once tried to contact my DS1 English teacher who seemed desperate to speak to me to be told she only spoke to parents between 9/5 Mon to Frid. When I explained at the time I was working in a secure unit where you can't leave because of extensive security checks to get in and out, take mob phones in or receive non urgent calls between 8/6 they said there was nothing they could do about it and that I needed to make an effort to be available. She then left 10 increasingly irritated messages on my landline/mob phone asking to speak to me that is what really pissed me off.
I made the point about contacting staff by the way in response to teachers in the independent schools teach less, therefore have more time to do other things. Our HM may not teach as much (I don't know what his teaching commitment is) but he certainly works every hour that God sent as far as I can see.

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

happygardening By the way, all of my friends that went to boarding school are not only charming and successful, but they all absolutely loved it. They say it was like a long sleepover, made them friendships for life and all of them are close to their families. In fact looking back over the holidays we've had at friends houses, our boarding friends tend to be the ones that invite us to go and stay with their parents.

Boarding your child does not imply you don't love them.

[Lancelottie]

I'm intrigued by the idea of tiny class sizes being the ideal. In a class of 8, a child who is in any way unusual could well be the odd one out and very lonely. Less likely to happen in a class of 25, surely?

(Parent of three oddballs here -- can you tell?)

[happygardening]

What on earth is a Tripp Trapp?

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

I second happygardening, what is a tripp trapp?

[Bonsoir]

happygardening - surely it is not the school that is influencing whether or not teenagers offer to clear the table versus load the dishwasher, but parents?

My DSSs' behaviour was very favourably influenced when they changed from a Neuilly-sur-Seine state school to a Paris private Catholic school. The change was driven by a desire for better academics and better pastoral care (and both those goals were amply fulfilled) - the change in behaviours (their spoken language, their clothing, their haircuts, their extra-curricular activities etc) had more to do with the families at the school than the school itself.

[TheWordFactory]

lancie I don't think anyone would advocate 8. Personally I like classes of 15 out of a larger cohort. Lots of room for rigorous setting.

[tootsietoo]

A very comprehensive analogy, thank you lighthouseshelfduster!

mummytime, my dad made an equally odd remark lately - he was outraged that my children get a bus to school for free! He said it was appalling, that we could afford to drive them to school everyday so why should we get a bus free? Well, because it reduces severe traffic problems, is better for the environment, fosters independence in the children, and really, are the council going to means test us all for buses?

It's a sort of attitude that it's not fair for people to get quality stuff provided by the state! I would rather pay good amounts of tax and get a free bus to school and a good NHS and school system. Actually, maybe I'm less of a free market capitalist than I thought.....

yes homeiswheretheginis, I did think it would probably go bunfight, but there are always some interesting views in amongst it all!

[Impatientismymiddlename]

I don't think that either sector is better than the other, but I do think that different schools suit different children.

One child might be happy and thriving in a class of 30 whereas another child might be better suited to a class of 18.
One child might be better suited to a selective environment whereas another child might be better suited to a more mixed intake school.
I do think that any kind of SEN is usually catered for better in the state sector, but other than that I think that different schools offer different things that suit certain children.

I personally am much more concerned with the gap between the best and worst state schools than I am with the differences between state and private schools.

[Lancelottie]

15 sounds about perfect (my choice of which 15 it should be might differ from the school's, though)!

[lighthouseshelfduster]

An expensive but rather nice Scandinavian high chair. See MN latest reviews. My dcs have them, they were absolutely the thing to get when we were shopping for high chairs a few years ago, and while they are nice, and worth it for us, they're not life-changing and there have been times I've wished we'd got something else.

My youngest dc's form tutor (state) once returned an email at 6am. I suspect individual teachers are the variables here rather than the types of school they teach in.

[rabbitstew]

HomeIsWhereTheGinIs - you are merely describing something that suited you. The round peg in the round hole.

[rabbitstew]

happygardening - your ds's English teacher sounds positively French.

[Bonsoir]

IME 15 is a good class size in single sex schools but 20+ is a better number in co-ed. My experience of co-ed (both my own - I experienced both co-ed and single-sex - and my DCs') is that girls quickly get drowned out in co-ed if there are too few of them.

[TheWordFactory]

tootsie I don't think you'll get to many private school parents worrying about how good state provision is. Frankly, you'll find far more parents in the state sector arguing against selction, faith schools etc