WHY the general assumption that private schools are better?

[tootsietoo]

I know this is similar to other recent threads, but slightly different!

I know very little about education - never worked in the sector, don't have many friends working in it, never been interested til children arrived! However, in my limited experience (DDs 6&7 at local primary school) the level of professionalism of the teachers is impressive! There seems to be such a comprehensive structure for planning progression and for assessing children's attainment, whilst the teachers seem to have the freedom to work with the children to inspire them in that they choose topics which interest them and can tailor classes and working groups to match children's abilities.

Yet within my group of friends there seems to be this inbuilt assumption that if you ever can pull enough cash in then off to private school your children will go. I also frequently read on here that the existence of private schools is unfair because it means only a few children will have the best opportunities. Which seems to assume that all private schools offer the best opportunities.

Is this a hangover from the 70s and 80s when we all grew up? Were state schools much worse then? Why is it just assumed that private schools offer the best education? I know private schools have more money therefore usually have the glitzy facilities, but surely it is down to the person standing in front of the children day in day out who is the really important part? I recall that at my small private girls day school I experienced the most inept teaching methods imaginable and I am told that at private schools today there is no requirement for teachers to be qualified! I do appreciate that my children are at a good school (that is, classified by ofsted as "good"), but are they all that unusual?

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

But, Mumtryingherbest, I would question whether what 'parents want' and 'what children want' is invariably, or even often, right.

If you're paying for education, why wouldn't you trust the people you're paying to do it? This is something that causes a real problem in HE: students feeling that because they're 'paying lecturers wages', they're the best judges of how they should be educated.

Sometimes they might be - sometimes they have good points which can be taken on board. But sometimes their demands are frankly unworkable, unfeasible, and silly. Education isn't always easy, or fun - but it also doesn't always look the way you think it should when you're on the receiving end. I would personally not want a school where the parents were calling the shots!

[TheWordFactory]

What? Out of say, 75 girls, they can't find 7 who want to play netball? ...

[MumTryingHerBest]

The following may demonstrate that it is not only State schools that experience behavioural problems:

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10541261/Warning-over-decline-in-behaviour-in-private-schools.html

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

I certainly wouldn't pay to have my daughters told to 'man up'!

Word - I don't know how many want to, or how much notice they've all got, or what else they're doing. I just know the netball teacher is notoriously unwilling to take 'no' for an answer, and assume there must be some unwillingness over that sport in particular. (Athletics and hockey more popular for some reason).

It's not always about 'wanting to', either - once she was convincing them the mini bus would get them back across town after a tournament in time for them only to miss the very beginning of the rehearsals for the play in which they were dancers, and they a) (rightly as it turned out) didn't believe her and b) didn't want to miss any rehearsal. No need for !

[TheWordFactory]

nit if you actively make a choice about your school, then you buy into its ethos.

This makes everything easier. It already behaves how you'd like it behave and offers what you'd like it to offer.

Obviously not an exact mirror of what you'd like to see, but close enough to please.

Hopefully, if you've chosen carefully enough, you shouldn't have to make too many demands.

That said, there will always be occasions when the parent body may want changes and I think it behoves schools of all types to listen.

I always wanted my DC's education to be a partnership. I certainly did not expect to hand them in at the door and obey the 'experts'.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

yes, obviously it's a partnership... but I'm wary of all this stuff about how they have to listen to parents. There's a time and place.

[weatherall]

I went to a private day secondary school.

It had no where near as good facilities as my DC's new build state school.

There were incompetent teachers, tiny gym hall, wobbly desks so old they had holes for ink wells in them! (90s)
We didn't have extra exam prep classes or much in the way of careers advice or help with Uni apps (just the assumption we'd go).
Support and guidance was pitiful.
Sex ed was 2 classes.
There were a lot of extra curricular clubs but with sport they only wanted the pupils who could win competitions.
There was bullying (even 2 suicides) and some playground fights/messing about in classrooms.

Yes there was a disproportionate number of very bright pupils with professional parents with nice big houses but it really wasn't what a lot of people who've never been to a private school have in their minds what it's like

[MumTryingHerBest]

Weatherall, do you know why your parents chose the school?

[MumTryingHerBest]

Nit I agree, in part, with your point. However, I would rather be in a position whereby I can make requests and have them considered rather than have them completely ignored.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Do you think that is what happens when we make requests or suggestions or even complaints at state schools, Mum?

[MummyPigsFatTummy]

As I think several people have already said, you just can't generalise about this. Some independent schools are great - some are not. The fact that one person found an independent school handled their child's bullying experience better than their previous state school does not mean independent shcools are generally better at this sort of thing than state ones - certainly not in the exerience of people I know (again, anecdote, which is all any of this is).

My brother and I both attended private schools - I loved mine - he hated his. His was considerably better-regarded than mine but it didn't suit him and his education suffered as a result. On reflection, mine didn't provide a particularly good education but I was happy day to day and did well enough to get decent results and a good career.

DD will be going to a state primary - it is a faith school, very small and hopefully she will be happy there and do well. If not, we may have to reconsider. We considered doing what a lot of people we know have - paying for private in hopes of DD getting through the 11+ - but in the end we have decided not to. However, if she reaches year 6 and is not within reach of a good secondary, whether super-selective or not, or a grammar, then we may have to re-think private education, so I guess we will have to start saving now just in case....

Ultimately though, I do think some (not all by any means) people do have a superior attitude about the fact they are paying for their children's education and what that says about them as loving and ambitious parents against those who choose not (or cannot afford) to do so, and that may be the case with the people you know.

[weatherall]

Mum-sometimes I think to myself it was a good way of having me out of the house 10 1/2 hours a day!

The local school was pretty rubbish. Not at all academic, assumed kids would leave at 16, that kind of thing. I was quite bright and the fees were very low compared to their income at times.

Looking back I think we'd all agree it would have been better to just move to an area with a better state school, but they never though of this .

They weren't well educated themselves so I suppose they thought the school could make up for that. (eg they couldn't help with later years homework)

[StillWishihadabs]

My tuppence-worth. Ds (yr 5) and dd (yr 2) are in an Ofsted good with outstanding features state primary. I was state educated dh privately, I have considered transferring them to the local prep several times (and been round it more than once). Academically I think there is little to choose between the state and private options. Ds is working 1-2 years ahead (nc levels 5 in year 5) dd similar (3a in year 2) it is also worth mentioning that ds is attending a tutor for his 11+ and easily holds his own against prep school dcs.

However Ds is in a class of 32 with 20% SEN dd has 28 less SEN but maybe not yet picked up, the sport they do at school is pitiful and I spend an awful lot of time being a taxi to football, riding, gym etc between 3 and 6 each night. My hope would be that if I paid it would free me of this as the extra-curricular stuff would be so much better. Also class sizes would be smaller (still 20 in local prep). What has stopped me is funnily enough the poor facilities at the prep school (smaller hall than at the state school, older computers, no separate dinning hall and the quality of the food).

So I don't think private schools are better in fact I think you get poorer value for money than in most state schools, but it is much easier for the parents. Yy to expecting there to be someone at home mon-fri 9-2 and available for ferrying to school events, making ft work much more difficult.

[MumTryingHerBest]

In my area, yes without a doubt.

One such point that has been raised by local mums is the inability of some local primary schools to offer 11 plus preparation to children attending their school. Given that 7 out of the 9 schools in the SW Herts consortium area requires the 11 plus, the inability to gain access to preparation for these exams can be a huge disadvantage to families who can not afford private tuition and mock test practice.

Interestingly this inability to provide any form of preparation is limited only to those schools who signed an agreement drawn up by the SW Herts Consortium 20-30 years ago.

Bear in mind that some children sitting those tests are coming from private preps. who are able to offer a fair amount of assistance in preparing for these exams (hence the reason why local parents are signing up to local preps.). Additionally those schools in the area who did not sign the agreement e.g. one school in Borehamwood offers free preparation sessions for the SW Herts 11 plus, yet a school that is within walking distance of Watford Boys Grammar is not able to due to the agreement.

This situation has been raised with Dorithy Thornhill and other local politicians and to date we have been told that there is nothing that can be done and local parents are powerless to have this changed.

[StillWishihadabs]

Weatherall if I am honest that is why I would do it !!

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Don't you think there might be some considered reasons not to prep children for the 11+?

[StillWishihadabs]

Need to go on school run (see). But yes in an ideal world no one would be prepped for the 11+ sadly that is not the world we live in.

[HomeIsWhereTheGinIs]

happygardening My apologies, I misread what you wrote. It's all based on the child really isn't it? Some will suit boarding school and some won't. We've got DS down for a couple for when he's older and we'll review it then - but I really hope he'll like it because it's such a brilliant experience!

[MumTryingHerBest]

When the agreement was initially drawn up yes.

If there were sufficient alternative places for children to go to, yes.

However, removing the 7 semi-selectives from the equation leaves only two schools to take the children who choose not to sit the test or fail to get a high enough mark.

It has been confirmed that there will be a short fall of school places in the SW Herts Consortium area in the next 11 plus sitting and with applicants covering an area of 9 miles, It does put those children who attend those schools who signed the agreement at a distinct disadvantage.

It is one thing to have such an agreement put in place, it is another when only a small number are bound by it.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

I'm sure there are all manner of issues with such an agreement - but the fact that the agreement is there and means that state primaries can't and won't prep for the 11+ does not, as far as I can see, mean that state schools ignore and dismiss all suggestions and questions from parents!

That's a very specific issue: I can't see how you could extrapolate it into the argument that private schools do as the parents tell them and state schools ignore everything parents ask.

[Martorana]

Th 11+ prep thing is a bit specific to be included in this, surely? Here in Kent, state primaries are specifically forbidden to provide more than familiarization. The local private school which sells itself exclusively on it's near 100% 11+ success rate does very well indeed.......

But not really relevant to the debate.......

[Grennie]

It is interesting what people say about sports. My state school had a policy of only employing PE teachers who were leaders in their field. I assume they gave time off to practice to attract them? I remember watching a few of the teachers who taught me on TV, setting world records or being interviewed as coaches for national teams. Wea lso did canoeing, sailing and grass skiiing. The school was not in a posh area at all, and I am still amazed at this when I look back.

[Abra1d]

Weatherall a private school like that would not survive today. Parents are more clued up.

[MumTryingHerBest]

Martorana, I fully agree with you. What's more the private schools in the area are being filled with bright children who did not perform well on the one day they sat the 11 plus.

What's more, I doubt the school consulted with parents prior to the agreement being signed. Now that parents are requesting for it to be reviewed, those same schools are saying there is nothing they can do.

If a private school had signed such an agreement, a fair number of parents , knowing that their child's future could be affected, would have moved to a different school. Parents of the children in the local state schools do not have that luxury as there are no state school places available for them to move to.

I admit that this is a fairly unique situation, or at least I would hope it is, but Nit I did say that my response was in relation to the area I live in.

[Martorana]

Maybe not a good idea to used this as an example of how private schools listen to parents and state schools don't, though.......