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Grammar offers 10 places to those triggering "pupil premium"

175 replies

legallady · 20/12/2013 10:36

Forgive me if this is a regular occurrence at other grammars but for those on the recent grammar thread, I thought it was interesting that Nonsuch High ( highly selective grammar in S W London) has reserved it's first 10 places for girls who have triggered the pupil premium at their primary school at any time in the last six years.

I know it's only ten out of 180 but at least they have thought about it. It may well be that they're just after the additional money but I like to think that their motives are a little more altruistic than that!

OP posts:
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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:25

Hurstmum- but you say that your parents were educated to degree level. How were you socially mobile to be educated to degree level too?

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 17:26

you are right WooWooOwl ..this has got sidetracked and should get back online...it's just when people keep asserting there is no social mobility from grammars...I have to disagree based on experience

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:31

Hurstmum- in what way does your experience illustrate social mobility?

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 17:32

you can be poor and on FSM and be educated to degree level Curlew....class is not just based on education nor is FSM...they were never on FSM but they were "working class" i.e. working in factories for a number of years as their degrees were from abroad and sad i said only a few pounds to their name it was only gradually after they had worked here for a few years that they moved into careers where their degrees were more recognised...immediate concerns were earning enough money to live when they first arrived. Even our "best" clothes were often made at home, something I can't imagine having to do now and nor would I be capable of it. Of course I am socially mobile if they were on lowest income tax bracket for many years and I am on the top one in my early 40's, went to Oxbridge....and was able to afford a much nicer house that they did.

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:34

Sorry-pressed "post" too soon. You appear to have gone from a degree educated professional family of origin (even if circumstances meant that your parents had a period of time in non-professional jobs) to being a degree educated professional adult....

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:36

That's why I never use the word "poor"-I use "disadvantaged". Which you weren't. You might have been poor, but not disadvantaged. You do not become working class if you do a "working class" job or not earn much money.

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:38

There should have been an "and" in there- I did not mean to suggest that working class and disadvantaged are synonyms.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 17:38

how is poor if educated immigrants with largely unrecognised degrees from abroad working in factories for many years on low tax bracket to Oxbridge educated in professional career all my life and top tax bracket (45%) not socially mobility to you ? They never earned anywhere close to what I do....not that money is the only measurement of mobility.

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:42

Money seems to be your indicator of social mobility. It isn't mine.

I also don't despise "foreign" degrees!

You come from a graduate family. You are a graduate.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 17:43

On that basis FSM does not mean disadvantaged either, we could have been FSM but my parents never wanted to claim anything...must admit feels pretty disadvantaged looking back at times having parents work shift work in factories and no real holidays and clothes having to be be made at home rather than bought, but don't think I realized we were "poorer" than others til I grew a bit older.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 17:45

on that basis, don't use FSM or poverty as the measure ..use children with "uneducated" parents (except you might get some cildren of rich ones then also - so does that make them disadvantaged also?)....

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curlew · 23/12/2013 17:54

It is, as everyone says, a very crude measure. But generally (hurstmum notwithstanding) poverty and disadvantage go together.

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LaVolcan · 23/12/2013 18:53

If they had a choice of a grammar school or the local sec modern for their OWN child - which one would they pick!

What choice do those who don't pass the 11+ have? You could turn down a GS place, but it doesn't work the other way.

(I am in a comprehensive area with no GS/Sec Mod split, and that is where I sent my children. Although it is an area with a lot of private schools, which cream off some, but not all of the academic children and some of the nice but dim, so the comprehensives do have skewed intakes to some extent.)

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curlew · 23/12/2013 19:17

"If they had a choice of a grammar school or the local sec modern for their OWN child - which one would they pick!"

Wll, of course they'd pick the grammar school. But it does seem to pass people by that getting in to the grammar school isn't a choice- it's something that happens to you. People are always talking about moving to Kent "for the wonderful grammar schools"- nobody talks about moving for the secondary moderns!
Personally, given a choice I would choose a comprehensive.

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soul2000 · 23/12/2013 19:39

Curlew. Is it impossible for a Secondary Modern school to be outstanding?

Why Can't ( I don't like the word) 1950s word, and used to shock people achieve if the troublesome 15% were removed. Why not place them in alternative or vocational education allowing the middle 15%- 75% to achieve 5Cs or better.

Why can't a good one be the right school for a child to achieve their potential. I think sometimes the way people talk about them,makes potentially good schools into poor ones in a self fulfilling prophecy.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 19:43

We wanted the selective grammar for our DS as he is academically inclined across the board, it's easy to get to, and ethos wise it suited him down to the ground (and yes, I could tell that at his age then when he took the test) ...if he had happened to be less so inclined, or likely to struggle to keep up there, or that option didn't exist and if we couldn't afford private, I would want a decent comp with proper streaming and music facilities, great MFL and extra curriculars, and ability to stretch all children etc...problem is, that alternative often isn't there in some areas. If it was, I believe less people would be complaining about the grammars being exclusive.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 19:46

perception in the 70s like it or not was that the sec moderns were where you went if you were not academic...I think that was wrong for then to be tagged like that...agree they should have been tagged as possibly academic (if you were that way inclined) but also possibly vocational schools...as opposed to solely academic grammars.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 19:55

From Wikipedia: ( and I agree that underinvestment in non-grammars was at fault):

Design of the system

The basic assumption of the Tripartite system was that all students, regardless of background, should be entitled to an education appropriate to their needs and abilities. It was also assumed that students with different abilities were suited to different curricula. It was believed that an IQ test was a legitimate way of determining a child's suitability to a particular tier.

There were to be three categories of state-run secondary schools. Each was designed with a specific purpose in mind, aiming to impart a range of skills appropriate to the needs and future careers of their pupils.

Grammar schools were intended to teach a highly academic curriculum, teaching students to deal with abstract concepts. There was a strong focus on intellectual subjects, such as literature, classics and complex mathematics. In addition to wholly state-funded grammar schools, a number of schools currently receiving state grants could become direct grant grammar schools, with some pupils funded by the state and the rest paying fees.

Secondary technical schools were designed to train children adept in mechanical and scientific subjects. The focus of the schools was on providing scientists, engineers and technicians.

Secondary modern schools would train pupils in practical skills, aimed at equipping them for less skilled jobs and home management.
It was intended for all three branches of the system to have a parity of esteem. The appropriate type of school for each student would be determined by their performance in an examination taken in the final year of primary school.

The system in operation


Implementation

The Tripartite System was arguably the least politically controversial of the great post-war welfare reforms. It had been written by a Conservative, and had received the full backing of Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

Many in the Labour party, meanwhile, were enthusiastic about the ability of the Tripartite System to enable social mobility. A first rate education would now be available to any capable child, not simply a rich one. The tripartite system seemed an excellent tool with which to erode class barriers.

In spite of this broad approval, the resources for implementing the system were slow in coming. The logistical difficulties of building enough secondary schools for the entire country delayed the introduction of tripartite education. It was not until 1951, and the election of a Conservative government, that the system began to be widely implemented. Some historians[who?] have argued that tripartite education was the Conservative answer to the attractions of the Welfare state, replacing collective benefits with individual opportunities. Even so, there was still a dramatic shortfall in resources for the new education system.

Very few technical schools were opened, due to the lack of money and a shortage of suitably qualified teachers. This failure to develop the technical part of the system undermined the whole structure. The tripartite system was, in effect, a two-tier system with grammar schools for the academically gifted and secondary modern schools for the others.

Grammar schools received the lion's share of the money, reinforcing their
image as the best part of the system, and places in grammar schools were highly sought after. Around 25% of children went to a grammar school, although there was a severe regional imbalance, with many more grammar school places available in the South than in the North, and with fewer places available for girls. This was partly the result of a historical neglect of education in the north of England, which the tripartite system did much to correct. Nevertheless, in 1963 there were grammar school places for 33% of the children in Wales and only 22% of children in the Eastern region.

Modern schools were correspondingly neglected, giving them the appearance of being 'sink schools'. Although explicitly not presented as such, the secondary modern was widely perceived as the bottom tier of the tripartite system. They suffered from underinvestment and poor reputations, in spite of educating around 70% of the UK's school children.

The Newsom Report of 1963, looking at the education of average and below average children, found that secondary moderns in slum areas of London left fifteen year olds sitting on primary school furniture and faced teachers changing as often as once a term.

Existing beliefs about education and the failure to develop the technical schools led to the grammar schools being perceived as superior to the alternatives. The system failed to take into account the public perception of the different tiers. Whilst officially no tier was seen as better than the other, it was a generally held belief amongst the general public that the grammar schools were the best schools available, and entry into the other two types was considered a "failure".

Alongside this system existed a number of public schools and other fee-paying educational establishments. These organised their own intakes, and were not tied to the curricula of any of the above schools. In practice, most of these were educationally similar to grammar schools but with a full ability range amongst their pupils.

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LaVolcan · 23/12/2013 20:22

Hurstmum - yes, there was definitely a failure to implement technical schools. My SIL was one of the fortunate ones who went to one in a city where they had them. She was perfectly happy there, I don't think she considered herself a failure. I think she knew she wouldn't have got on with the Latin and Greek of (some) grammar schools and had a strong practical bent. Sadly they moved house when she was 14, to a GS/Sec Mod area, and it was the Sec Mod for her. It put her off education for good, and she left school as soon as she was able to managing only a couple of O levels, when I am sure she was capable of much more.

And of course, although there was supposedly parity of esteem, there was no element of testing practical skills or sporting prowess - it was only maths, English and those curious shape sorting tests which were used. Furthermore, you could turn down a grammar school place - some had to because the uniforms etc. were too expensive.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 20:25

yes, it's not the grammar schools that were wrong, but the lack of parity of esteem or proper investment in the rest ...for the remaining 70%. In some areas (no the ones with excellent comps) that remains true today.

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LaVolcan · 23/12/2013 20:33

But not all grammar schools were good back then. I suspect that is still true today - they get academic children from committed families in, and some can rest on their laurels because the children will get the results despite the school.

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HurstMum · 23/12/2013 20:42

agree with that, some were pretty mediocre or worse

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summerends · 23/12/2013 22:14

Whatever the disadvantages of the grammar school admission systems, the state funding is equivalent or less for grammar schools now. Furthermore, to paraphrase a previous post in a related thread, any perceived reduction in social mobility from state education in recent years should logically be due to a failure of the comprehensive system (or its poor implementation) since the majority of children are educated in comprehensive schools.

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straggle · 24/12/2013 07:59

Or the irresistible attraction of exclusivity and privilege for the budget conscious but no less sharp elbowed middle classes. Xmas Wink

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HurstMum · 24/12/2013 08:19

"sharp elbowed middle classes" is a bit hackneyed now isn't it straggle...if you mean the middle classes are likely to have greater aspirations for their children then you are right..and given most of the population likely considers itself middle class, especially in the South, I suspect you mean most of us. Exclusivity - yes academically I suppose but that can range from top 25% to 5% academically depending on the grammar. Privilege - only in the sense of academic exclusivity. How much add value grammar adds to an already academically selective cohort is open to question.

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