Grammar offers 10 places to those triggering "pupil premium"

[legallady]

Forgive me if this is a regular occurrence at other grammars but for those on the recent grammar thread, I thought it was interesting that Nonsuch High ( highly selective grammar in S W London) has reserved it's first 10 places for girls who have triggered the pupil premium at their primary school at any time in the last six years.

I know it's only ten out of 180 but at least they have thought about it. It may well be that they're just after the additional money but I like to think that their motives are a little more altruistic than that!

[lougle]

I don't think it's true that girls on PP won't pass the test. They may pass the test with lesser marks than the tutored ones, but that's why these 10 places help them - they get it by virtue of simply passing the test, unless there are more than 10 girls on PP that do so.

[sashh]

Who enters the girls for the test though? If it the parents some won't / can't get round to it. Is the school allowed to enter them?

[lougle]

I don't know, but I do think there is danger in presuming that being entitled to PP = parents uninterested in a child's education.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

I can't see how the school could just enter them. The parents might not want them to go there. Then of course there are other factors like can the parents get them there (buses are expensive) cost if the uniform. It's no good giving the kids a place then there being nothing in place that allows them to take it.

[curlew]

"I don't know, but I do think there is danger in presuming that being entitled to PP = parents uninterested in a child's education."

Agreed. There is also a danger in denying that in general, even if parents are interested! disadvantaged children do worse than non disadvantaged ones.

[Gileswithachainsaw]

I think the problem lies more with the definition of disadvantaged. Pp is an indicator for some but many others are in the same boat or worse off even because they don't qualify for pp.

Do we even know what's happening with Pp anyway in the wake if the FSM for every infant child. What other identifying factors will be used?

It's great they have an indicator and I appreciate it's all they have but it isn't good enough really. But not sure what else can be done

[curlew]

I agree it's not the best indicator, but it's the best we've got. And I do see a tendency on here to say "well, it's not a very good indicator, so we mustn't use it".We have to use something-the social segregation in selective education is appalling.

[OnGoldenPond]

The grammar school system is in itself socially segregating. A bit of tinkering here and there is not going to change that fundamental fact. Bright kids from lower income backgrounds are more likely to perform well academically in a comprehensive system than in a grammar system.

[herdream1]

Hi OnGoldenPond; Would you please explain a little why you think "Bright kids from lower income backgrounds are more likely to perform well academically in a comprehensive system than in a grammar system" ? Thank you.

[curlew]

"Hi OnGoldenPond; Would you please explain a little why you think "Bright kids from lower income backgrounds are more likely to perform well academically in a comprehensive system than in a grammar system" ? Thank you."

I'm sure OnGoldenPond will be back soon, but I hope she will forgive me for saying why I agree with her.
The basic reason is that there is research to prove it. The Sutton Trust, among others have published lots of stuff on this. The intake of grammar schools is overwhelmingly children from relatively middle class prosperous backgrounds. Children from disadvantaged backgrounds are significantly less likely to take and pass the 11+, and therefore end up in secondary modern type schools, where research shows that bright children do less well than they do in comprehensives. The only children who do measurably better in a selective system are bright middle class children- and even they do only very slightly better- certainly not better enough to make it worth the damage to others.

[OnGoldenPond]

Thanks curlew you have basically summarised the reasons why the grammar school fails the majority of DCs and especially those from lower income families.

It spectacularly fails the 80% or do who did not pass the11+ and did not even give the remaining favoured 20% any measurably better education compared to a properly comprehensive system.

This spectacular waste of talent was resulting in a poorly educated workforce and was a major reason why it was dropped by most if the country back in the 70s.

[OnGoldenPond]

Superselectives are not really grammar schools. They are a curious hangover which just create a state if hysteria and unnecessary stress for parents who mistakenly think their bright DCs need an intensely elite education in order to succeed. I know about superselectives, live near one. It is annoying that the schools are not used to provide school places for local chdren in an area suffering from a secondary places crisis.

Some areas however do have a full grammar system however which is what I was referring to and suffer from the problems I mentioned. Thankfully most areas got rid of this system a long time ago but it is a worry that pressure from middle class parents may bring it back to more areas. Because if course they expect their DCs to get into the grammar schools. Not many are campaigning for their DCs to go to secondary moderns.

[curlew]

I suspect that the socio economic profile of a super selective is even more exclusive (if that's possible) than in "ordinary" grammar schools.

And ther we whole raft of other issues about isolating very, very bright children from their peer group in separate schools. But that's for another thread....

[OnGoldenPond]

Yes superselectives very very socially exclusive and most often seen as a way of getting a private school education without the fees by prep school parents. The "undesirable" DCs of low income families are kept out by the hyped up tutoring culture thus keeping these schools a middle class preserve. Can't see how reserving a few token places if going to change this culture.

[LaVolcan]

Thankfully most areas got rid of this system a long time ago but it is a worry that pressure from middle class parents may bring it back to more areas. Because if course they expect their DCs to get into the grammar schools. Not many are campaigning for their DCs to go to secondary moderns.

If that were to happen, I could envisage a couple of things happening:
Either enough middle class children would fail and have their aspirations curtailed, and with the same result as we had back in the sixties/seventies - a move to abolish selection.

But in today's more pushy, less egalitarian climate, I fear the result would be a national explosion in tutoring, (just going by the anguished posts I see on MN from parents in GS areas.)

[Retropear]

Most middleclass parents I know couldn't afford tutoring.It is the rich who tutor.

[LaVolcan]

I honestly wouldn't know if it's only the rich who tutor, but personally, I suspect it's quite a few fairly middle income people who organise tutoring or a little independent school for a couple of years, in order to pass the 11+; this is a more affordable proposition than a commitment to 7 years of independent school post 11 to avoid the Sec Mod.

I would imagine though, that the 10 places offered to those who have triggered the Pupil Premium would be in neither category.

(Of course, how you define 'middle income' is a bit of a minefield, when you occasionally get people on MN who are on their beam ends on £100K per annum!)

[Retropear]

Middle income parents can't afford private schooling- just how?

I have rich friends who struggle with fees.Just how would a family on 40-60k pay for a mortgage and fees on top?

Heartily sick of the middle being ripped to shreds as sharp elbowed,private educating,tutoring blah blah place stealers when the vast maj can't afford tutoring or anything else and are simply working hard to pay mortgages and ensure our dc do their best with fuck all help from anybody.

The middle are in the unfortunate position of having no money to buy places and no eligibility for gov help- but they still get ripped to shreds.

[curlew]

Tutoring is important, but it can also be a bit of a smokescreen. Children from middle class, "privileged" families have the edge over children from disadvantaged backgrounds even from a standing start. Even if somehow tutoring was banned, in general PP children would do worse. It's all to do with parents having the knowledge, inclination, leisure and confidence to provide a more "enriched" life for their children.

And no, before somebody says, I am not saying that middle class parents should be banned from buying their children books.

What I am saying is that an education system that gives an unassailable advantage to a particular group that the child itself can do nothing to mitigate is obviously unfair.

[Retropear]

So those on pp aren't capable of going to the library,limiting screen time and talking- just because they're on pp.At £17 k you miraculously turn into library visiting parents.Not sure my highly educated friend in receipt of pp would agree.

What a crock.

Basically parents who work hard to earn over pp are being shat on.The rich can continue to buy their places and anybody over £16k has fewer places to win.

Utterly crap idea.

[HurstMum]

And what is wrong with middle classes seeking grammars as a "private education without paying the fees"...why should a good education require fees and not be provided by the state and why should the middle classes who get to claim nothing but pay much greater percentage of taxes for everything not be able to partake in decent state education?

We can afford private for secondary but prefer to save for uni, pension, deposit on house for DS in the future etc. and we have no morality issues in DS going to superselective grammar as he was clever enough to get in without tutoring apart from a bit of DIY. He's done well because we invest a lot of time in education at home also with enrichment.

We contribute so much in taxes - so not sure why people accuse middle classes some sort of immoral stealing of grammar school places if they are not poor enough to claim FSM. I hope our DS gives something back also to society by becoming a doctor or scientist...and grammar school helps him get there. Nothing wrong with that as an aspiration.

[curlew]

Yep. Life for the middle classes is absolute hell .

Your children are automatically better off than the vast majority of disadvantaged children in tangible and intangible ways. What you're wanting is to maintain that privilege. What I want is for the playing field to be a bit more level. It will never actually be level, but at least it won't be so very slanted!

[Retropear]

Sorry if the advantages are down to books,literacy and the spoken word it comes down to parental choice and money doesn't come into it.

This idea does nothing,it's crap.Sorry.