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Children arrive at school incapable of learning

404 replies

Brycie · 24/10/2012 07:24

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

OP posts:
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piprabbit · 24/10/2012 10:11

Home Start are still going, but I'm not sure if they are working throughout the UK.

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fuzzpig · 24/10/2012 10:12

Problem is that help is only helpful if you accept it - as others have said the families that need the most help are hardest to reach. Before I got sick I was on the committee for my local SureStart - we have lots of centres in my town, and interestingly, ours was the wealthiest part of town, but has the highest incidence of diagnosed PND.

You can't make people go to these places though. My mum has the same problem, she is involved with bookstart distribution through her job and you can't actually force people to take advantage of the scheme - most of the people who use it actually don't need it because they already read/buy/borrow books, and it's just a nice freebie rather than an intervention.

I guess we are kind of in the middle as we recognise just how much help we need right now. I am very, very close to phoning SS but it seems like a massive leap into the unknown.

I just don't know how much help is even available. It is such a battle.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:13

I assume you mean parenting rather than mothering specifically Ronaldo?

No I mean mothering. Children also need fathering. They are different roles.

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dysfunctionalme · 24/10/2012 10:16

Ronaldo you keep making these big statements without any back up. I'm going to have to give up on you.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:18

"We did not have this level of problem before working mothers and single parent families being a norm." Oh yes we did! And working mothers have been the norm for many many families since the start of humanity. Have you ever watched programmes like Who Do You Think You Are? or studied social history?

Yes, and the problems were the same. Ferel kids, disorganised families, drink, drugs and all manner of similar issues. Look at the stories of the workhouse and "parish" for examples of this too. Only when you had two parents bringing up their children with good models did it stop.

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fuzzpig · 24/10/2012 10:19

Yep homestart going strong in my area and currently training more volunteers, hence us waiting til next month. Coordinator is going to make sure she assigns us a volunteer with a car as getting about is a big problem for us.

I also got referred to portage which is a scheme that helps families with under 5s who have disabilities or developmental problems - unfortunately though they are so understaffed here that we can't get any help unless our 3yo has a diagnosis of ASD (unlikely now - he's just got a 'severe speech delay). They are really scaling back their service, the person who visited us was clearly very sad about it.

I hope one day I will be healthy again and I will be able to volunteer for something like this.

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losingtrust · 24/10/2012 10:20

Ronaldo, can I just remind you how many single parents there were during and after the war - did we have more feral kids then? My Father was raised by a single mother, he is probably the nicest most balanced man there is.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:20

Ronaldo you keep making these big statements without any back up. I'm going to have to give up on you

Please do. I amjust stating an opinion like anyone else. Its not a university essay.

I think that MN ers might be surprised at how many people agree quietly.
(not here but "out there" in the big world)

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helpyourself · 24/10/2012 10:22

It's funny - I had a DC that was unable to dress/undress themselves, and fit the 'chaotic family' heading, I guess.

I bet you don't fit into that category Couthy.

Chaotic in parenting context means not getting out of the house, except to put money on the gas card, running out of food, inadequate or no shoes. It really is quite extreme non parenting to have a NT child trying to eat like a dog out of plate because they've not seen a fork before.

Ronaldo's comments re mothering are interesting- when you speak of mothering, I think that many of the patrents are, albeit misguidedly, extremely nurturing and do have their childrens' best interests at heart.

They don't want to make them unhappy by challenging them- weaning, potty training, making them go to bed, try new food, come to the park, all require an element of us making our children do something, at least the first time, and if they weren't made to do something themselves as children, they don't have the confdence to do it.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:23

Ronaldo, can I just remind you how many single parents there were during and after the war - did we have more feral kids then? My Father was raised by a single mother, he is probably the nicest most balanced man there is

Mostof them didnt have the other factor - serial boyfriends coming through the house. Its an interesting statistic that the children of widows are much less likely to be socially difficult or have problems or be " ferel" than those divorce or unmarried mothers.

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losingtrust · 24/10/2012 10:24

Ronaldo of course lots of people agree with you - just read the Daily Mail comments. Your point appears to be that all be will be well with the World if parents stayed married - this is just rose-tinted glasses. Research tends to suggest that children from homes where the parents constantly argue can have serious issues. Also we do not live in a perfect world. In some 'happily married' families there are also serious alcohol and drug issues.

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EdgarAllanPond · 24/10/2012 10:26

"They don't want to make them unhappy by challenging them- weaning, potty training, making them go to bed, try new food, come to the park, all require an element of us making our children do something, at least the first time, a"

yy to this, this is the thing i think is frowned on now -you will hear 'you can't make them' 'In their own time' 'not worth getting stressed over (like anyone is saying getting stressed will help!) ' about many things.

encouragement is seen as force. effort is seen as unnecessary hassle.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:27

Ronaldo not even going to go there! As a single parent whose husband opted out of parenting, your comments are offensive to those who wanted the above

Point proven. Your husband needs a shorgum put to his head and he needs to be made to take his responsibilities. Do you want me to bring the shot gun?.

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losingtrust · 24/10/2012 10:27

I do tend to agree on the amount of boyfriends and girlfriends though and sometimes I do think parents should think of the impact on this.

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MaryPoppinsBag · 24/10/2012 10:28

The revised EYFS has introduced. New 2 year check which is to be completed by an Early Years Practitioner so a childminder/ nursery/ pre school. It is supposed to tie in with a health visitors 2 year check.

It's purpose is to spot any problems and to intervene.

However, it only applies if the child attends a childcare setting.

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losingtrust · 24/10/2012 10:29

What point have you proven? Do you think my DCs are feral now because I can assure you that when DS's teacher rang me last week to tell me how well he was doing at school or DD's parents evening is great that this has anything to do with it? I do not need a shot gun. I just get on with life and put DCs first. Revenge would be far worse for them.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:31

Ronaldo, don't be shy, I am genuinely interested in why you say this. What is it you think happens at pre schools that is so damaging?

Other children and being taken from their main care giver ( mothering).

I think there is an age below which children are not ready to be "socialised" with others. They want and need one on one attention from the person who feeds, clothes and cuddles them. They need warmth, security and not being pushed away. Irs a developmental stage to use the pedegogy.

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helpyourself · 24/10/2012 10:35

I think there is an age below which children are not ready to be "socialised" with others. They want and need one on one attention from the person who feeds, clothes and cuddles them. They need warmth, security and not being pushed away. Irs a developmental stage to use the pedegogy

I think there's something missing from the last sentence, but looking at that rest, until what age?

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EdgarAllanPond · 24/10/2012 10:36

good quality nursery childcare looks just like the care setting children have known for millenia - groups of women looking after groups of children in a fun and loving way.

the one woman alone thing pretty much didn't exist prior to the C20th, people couldn't afford that distance from the rest of humanity.

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helpyourself · 24/10/2012 10:37

And a suplementary Ronaldo what if the main care giver isn't doing the feedin, clothing and cuddling adequately? And I'm not talking ready meals v fresh, rather biscuits instead of protein?

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:38

probably DO have mothers who are at home for the first five years of their lives, and probably the next five or ten as well

They may well have a person claiming to be a "mother" but I doubt that person is doing the role of mothering - at home or not. Mostly from what I recall of those who fit that bill, not. They were too busy "having their own lives" even though they had children.

There is a level of selfishness amongst parents now I cant recall as a child or identify with as a father. Thats a generalised statement and I am not sure any work has been done on it, but I think its true.

You see I am not convinced by the " deprivation" arguments or the need to programmes to address this. I am sure its not about certain social groups either . Its deeper.

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Ronaldo · 24/10/2012 10:46

And a suplementary Ronaldo what if the main care giver isn't doing the feedin, clothing and cuddling adequately? And I'm not talking ready meals v fresh, rather biscuits instead of protein?

Thats probably the point at which someone has to step in and remove the child/children. I dont hold with the " helping" thing here. Removal.

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colditz · 24/10/2012 10:49

I don't think the "happy mummy, happy baby" meme has helped, to be honest.

Some people are just not happy when they are doing basic household task such as cooking dinner or doing a bedtime routine, reading stories, washing clothes and making beds.

I am one of those people. I hate the humdrum, hate it with a passion. I would be happier not to do any of that.....

But I am under no illusions about how happy my children would be if I made myself happy and stopped doing it. Their lives would be shit, and I can see this because I have the insight to recognise how my refusal to behave in an adult fashion would impact on their environment. I know that in this case, happy mummy would equal under stimulated, poorly nourished, dirty, uneducated children. So I do those tasks with a fixed grin and I never let them see how much I dislike it (except reading. With reading I exercise complete control over the books I will read and never read anything by Disney, or with Thomas. I'm happy about that)

But

Some people are caught up by the "happy mummy, happy baby" meme and don't recognise the damage they are doing. They genuinely think, because they have been TOLD, that if they are happy, it automatically follows that the children are happy.

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CouthyMowEatingBraiiiiinz · 24/10/2012 10:52

Edgar - it depends. When the stats say that the percentage of DC's with SN's hasn't increased, does that cover Primary age as a whole? Because if so, these DC's may not yet have been dxd in Reception.

Where I live, there just AREN'T enough pre-school places for everyone who wants to send their DC. And the lists are run on a first-come, first-served basis.

For my DS3's year, if your DC was born after April, they will get a year less at pre-school, simply because there isn't enough places.

I put DS3's name down when he was just 7 days old. He will get the three mornings or afternoons a week I wanted, from age 2y9m. From 3y9m, he will have 5 mornings or afternoons a week.

Those that don't get a place at preschool are unlikely to have dxd SN's, unless they are glaringly obvious, as they aren't in any formal setting. So often diagnoses aren't made until Y1/Y2, or if there is a school like my primary, often not until the end of Y6, on Secondary transfer.

Which can often mean they have had no help for their SN's until the start of Y7. Which is why Secondary schools have so many issues with DC's coming in unable to read etc.

So while the percentage may not have changed overall, I'll bet that hardly any of the SN's in these statistics are dxd before Reception.

Hence 'NT' DC's starting YR unable to use cutlery, or not yet toilet trained.

And also, my Primary itself has very recent data on the jump in DC's who start YR not toilet trained and unable to fully self care after being forced to go to a single intake, meaning that there are many more barely 4yo's there. It's only been the last 4 intakes (including this year's YR) that have not had staggered starts on our school.

It's hardly surprising that a just-turned 4yo's self care skills are far below those if a child aged 4y11m, is it?

At 4yo, my DS2 had only been walking at ALL for 5 months. (Due to his disability, he took his first steps at 3y7m). By age 4y10m, when he started school, he had been walking for 16 months. It stands to reason that his walking skills were vastly improved by the extra 10 months between age 4, and 4y11m.

And YY to whoever says that it is bloody difficult to get OT, Physio, SALT if you do not fit the MC criteria. You are judged and find it much harder to access the services you need.

With DD, she first saw an EP at age 5yo, in YR. In her SECOND Primary school. I had been trying to get her school Nursery, and then her YR teacher, to refer her, but they refused, telling me it was 'poor parenting'.

I faced that year on year, through 4 Primary schools (forced house moves, unfortunately, after the first move which was from an unsupportive school to a more supportive one).

It got to the point at my DC's current Primary school, that the SenCo there apologised to me after DD had left and gone to Secondary school. She had 'realised that it couldn't be poor parenting with your DD, because your DS1 has all these skills and more'.

What fucking good that did DD after she had left and had had no support with her SEN's for 5 years is utterly beyond me.

So yeah, you get judged. And it's only if you can produce another DC who DOESN'T have these issues that suddenly people sit up and realise that it's NOT your 'chaotic family', or 'poor parenting', but an undxd SN.

I DO agree that M&B units for teen mums are a good idea. But they already exist. They are just criminally underfunded.

I had my DD at 16, and a lot of the way I parent now is because I WAS in a M&B unit when she was small.

I learnt things like First Aid, how to wean a baby on healthy food, how to play with a baby. And much much more.

Having a baby at 16 doesn't make you a 'bad' parent. It you get 'bad' parents in all age groups, across all social classes.

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Hullygully · 24/10/2012 10:53

I have never ever ever met one of these hopeless children from a wealthy home who can't do anything because they have been waited on hand and foot.

Where are they?

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