Children arrive at school incapable of learning

[Brycie]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2222176/Chaotic-homes-creating-children-incapable-learning-says-Gove-Teachers-report-year-olds-nappies-speak-sentences.html I wonder what people think of this. Is this child abuse?

What kind of intervention can be offered? On a school thread the other day one poster was talking about how long it can take to teach a child to ask to be excused for the toilet. It seems nuts not to start intervention earlier. Can these children in danger be identified for special programmes from say age 2? How can a programme be created which "discriminates" against children from better organised families to prevent the Surestart problem (ie being overtaken by the enthusiastic parents who don't really need it as much). There must be lots of social workers here who have an opinion but other people too.

Bonsoir the problem is that it's very hard to find standardised tests for below the age of 3. The natural variation in language etc among 2-3 year olds is massive - from no language at all, to full, grammatically accurate sentences. Equally with things like using cutlery, toileting, there is huge natural and unworrying variation. There are certain things you would expect to be seeing by age 3 in pretty much all children. Testing below that age would probably just worry parents unnecessarily.

Grey yes but Surestart is specifically for those who are struggling and was never meant for well educated and middle class parents....there needs to be some other way of making sure DC are getting what they need....no matter what background they're from.

wordfactory yes I suppose they are more likely to be warm, fed and clothed than if there was no money.

MrsCant I don't really understand it either, I guess your friend doesn't understand early childhood development.

I find it quite difficult to be friends with people like that, I want to be nice but it's like a fundamental division, that lack of respect for the child.

In my experience there are plenty of children in affluent households who are neglected by parents who would rather switch on a dvd, hand over a laptop etc than engage in conversation or take them to a park.
That's very true, but those children are still at an advantage because affluent parents are more likely to have a routine- bedtimes exist, if only because one parent at least is up in the morning for work, they have food and a bed.
Some families have no routine, children on mattresses in the only family room etc.

colditz Ive tried....by demonstration mainly....getting crayons out and trying to engage him etc but I think the damage has already been done as he has no sticking power at all...when they come here, I set the table and pop him beside my DC to eat with us all and he's pretty much incapable.

VERY good at using a computer though.

Good idea colditz, appeal to her intellectual side

But Colditz I reckon you're right about the parent being used to quite an exciting life and mopping sauce off a wall isn't cutting it....

help yes...one can't compare a slightly neglected child who has a routine and a good home to live in to one who has a chaotic home life with multiple visitors, dangerous environment etc.

I doubt the children described by Gove have been to nursery or are from affluent families. It's a really low level parenting to get to age 4 not able to sit up at table, still in nappies and drinking only from a bottle.

I don't think she knows really, what he's meant to be doing by now. Maybe there needs to be a leaflet delivered, a year before pre school....clear and simple and outlining the things they need to have mastered by the time they are three?

It's worth remembering too that the parents of some of these children will have learning difficulties themselves. They might not have a clue how to run a household smoothly and just won't have the skills to teach a child the basics. They're not doing it out of cruelty they just do it because they genuinely don't know any better.

I think if you can't be arsed to potty train your NT child by 4, or get him to sit up at table, you're not going to read a leaflet. MrsCan't, how do you think your friend would react?

My DD started pre-school in Sept. When we went to the meeting for new parents in July, it was chaos.
Children were literally climbing walls, they had to get staff in to calm them down, they were spitting at each other, screaming, hitting, kicking. The teacher leading the meeting had to repeatedly ask parents to quieten their children. They didn't.
I left nearly in tears along with a few shell shocked parents.
I mentioned it, sounding I'm sure like a mother of a pfb & was told not to worry as they weren't an outstandingly Ofsteded school for nothing!
A couple of months in it is obvious that there are a group of children that really don't have great social skills. Simple things such as sitting down when asked & responding to any sort of instruction. Language is a key thing here too. Children just seem to scream & hit.
Parents also don't seem to have listening skills or even manners. Pushing children(not their own), out of the way. Grabbing their children at home time despite repeated requests from staff to wait until the child is called.
My child & a fair few others will be spending this term watching these children be taught things that they've all been learning since they were tiny. Things as simple as waiting, sharing, sitting at a table for lunch, hitting etc is wrong, how to play appropriately with peers & toys.
My child is not some sort of genius or an especially well behaved child & neither are her friends, they are people we met at various baby clubs when she was little etc, from a very diverse part of London from many different walks of life etc.

Callin, that's very true.
The unsocialised children at DDs nursery were from kind families with very low self esteem, didn't attend the library because they couldn't see the point, felt judged by the HV, wouldn't go to the park because they felt unsafe, etc.

help I know...she'd probably skim it and chuck it away.

There was a scientific study done in the states (sorry I can't remember the details) it compared the development of brains between 'normal' people and criminals. The findings showed a marked difference in the growth of the stem (the empathetic area) of the brains which grow markedly larger in those who have been properly responded to (when they cried etc.) and cared for as tiny babies.

Clearly demonstrating that it's the vicious circle that needs some sort of intervention at a very young age.

pleasenomore it sounds bad! That makes me feel that the ONLY way round this, is to identify these families early on and to implement home visits where they are taught the basics....daily visits from a support worker....there must be many people who could train to do this.

Yes ppeatfruit I suppose it would cost a lot....but intensive home visits are the only thing I can think of.

Pleasenomore that was my experience exactly.
It does get better. Those children were way out of their comfort zone, as were their parents. This term the teachers will be concentrating on getting those children to turn take and sit when appropriate. They will be better by Christmas and the vast majority will be behaving and learning well by Easter.
It's a rollercoaster emotionally until then.

MrsCan't That makes me feel that the ONLY way round this, is to identify these families early on and to implement home visits where they are taught the basics....daily visits from a support worker....there must be many people who could train to do this.
In an ideal world yes, but just look at the resistance on here when you, for example suggest that the TV shouldn't be on as background for toddlers.

I think that a lot of families need "adopting." People should be paid to adopt whole families and parent all of them, because the parents themselves haven't been parented etc etc. The old cycle of abuse that goes round and round and round. And if the parents never become really wonderful, at least the children will have been helped to break free.

Nothing useful to add apart from the fact that Gove looks almost as much of a knob as he is in that picture

In my experience(as a TA in a socially deprived area)we have children in reception who've never seen cutlery before, one boy literally tried to eat his dinner like a dog. Half our nursery class are in nappies and a little less than half have speech and language problems. The y2 class I'm in now are incapable of sitting still and as a cohort have little empathy for one another. Definite signs of neglect in some, it's just so sad and so hard to try and make a difference.

Some of the parents will have had a terrible time at school for various reasons, and going back there to bring there own children is a horrible experience. That can be part of the reason why they're so uncooperative and disruptive.

Can I also mention another group of children who give cause for concern?

We have a number of children who have obviously had everything done for them at home - they came to us making no attempt to pull down their own trousers and toilet time and would hand us their coats, without a word, expecting us to just do it for them.
They will do the same at snack-time :simply hold out their fruit and expect someone to come along and peel their banana or satsuma.
They don't ask for help, it's done wordlessly and we are working so hard to teach them these skills.

I think that, in many cases, the parents would be horrified if they realised the effect their parenting has on their children. Lots of these children haven't got the ability to think for themselves or to start using their initiative-simply because they have never had to. Their every need has been anticipated and parents have pre-empted any attempts to 'do it myself'.

Now, I have to say that this isn't the case with all of our children, and we are well aware that some of our new children are barely 3 and therefore still acquiring these skills. We don't expect miracles

However, we have 4 year olds, and rising 4's who are behind developmentally, purely because they haven't had the opportunity to learn for themselves, to make mistakes and to just 'try'.

Personally, I worry a lot about these children. I also feel sorry for them, because they are in for a hell of a shock when they come into a preschool setting and realise that we aren't going to pamper them.