Page 2 | Anyone else's child doing the 11+ exam on Monday?

tigermoth · 31/01/2006 15:27

SHR, so some schools actually teach NVR as a subject? I never knew. I am also really surprised that a private school like yours would be so dismissive of coaching for exams and scholarships. My son's church school (it follows the national curriculum) would not openly advocate coaching as there are no grammar schools in our borough, so the official LEA line is anti grammar school. I would assume though, that private primaries would not be so reticent.

scienceteacher · 01/02/2006 17:01

I teach at a prep school, and VR/NVR is a timetabled subject. In addition, we do lots of exam practice for 11+ candidates in English, Maths and Science, depending on which senior school they are going to.

I was chatting to the Head of a nearby senior independent school, and he told me that prep school candidates at 11+ are marginally better off than primary school candidates because of their VR/NVR, but that you could close the gap by going to WH Smith and buying a selection of Bond Assessment papers. You can get these age appropriate papers for the 3 or 4 years before your child sits the 11+.

Jennypog · 02/02/2006 10:54

My child has just sat a test for an Independent school, but has been to a state primary. The preps were bussing the children in for the test - they came in coaches. Do they sit all of the children for the tests, or just the bright ones? Do the independents take into account that the prep school kids have been coached and the others haven't? The school told me that there was no need to coach for the test and I am worried now that I believed them. I feel I have jeopardised my child's future by not coaching. What a fool I am. We just did some verbal reasoning papers and she got 95%ish so I thought, great, that's fine. However, she also had to write an article, do maths, comprehension, etc.

RTKangaMummy · 02/02/2006 11:04

Jenny were they for the 13+ or 11+

At DH school they have had the prep schools doing 13+ last week

But there are 11+ prep primary schools round here whoose job it is to cram the children to get them into the schools

But the problem is very short sighted cos the kids can't cope when they get higher up the school

one of our neighbours has been tutoring a boy to get into a local school and the mother said it only matters that he passes the exam not what happens when he gets there

Which is a stupid attitiude IMHO cos if they get in they should get in bcause they are bright enough and not because they have been crammed for months and months to pass the exam

Then they will struggle and be unhappy

RTKangaMummy · 02/02/2006 11:10

BTW I was just talking about this one boy not about the children of mumsnetters

It kind of came out wrong

This boy has only very basic english and so there is no way he will cope at * ***

She just wanted him to get in but how would he be able to cope in the lessons????????

scienceteacher · 02/02/2006 19:56

My experience is that the main objective of the prep school is to get their pupils into the right schools for them. We would not cram a child in order to get them into a school they couldn't cope with. A lot of parents have dillusions about their child's brilliance, however, and any pressure to get into a top school is usually parent-driven, rather than school-driven. It takes great diplomacy on the part of the prep school to give them a reality check.

I've found that 11+ is a pretty easy exam and that it is fairly straightforward getting a girl into the right school. The 13+ is a lot harder (taking the age difference into account), but that most of the selection into senior takes place at 12+ pretests (VR/NVR, and perhaps interviews). We haven't had any CE failures under the current headship (approx 10 years), because of the accurate pretests.

scienceteacher · 02/02/2006 20:04

Jennypog,

Senior schools select on lots of criteria, not just the exam results. They will be well aware of your child's educational history. Some schools will have quotas for intake from 11+ prep schools, 13+ prep schools, and from primary schools; others will put all the 11+ candidates into one big pot.

For an academically selective school, their main objective is to fill their places with kids who are guaranteed to get whatever number of A grade GCSEs. They use fairly blunt instruments to make these assessments.

RTKangaMummy · 02/02/2006 20:21

why do so many past papers and VR/NVR lessons if not cramming then ?

to get in at 11+ ?

scienceteacher · 02/02/2006 20:35

I wouldn't call a once a week class cramming. It's simply sharpening up their skills.

I really don't know of any prep school that would deliberately get their children into inappropriate schools. It's not good for the child, or for the prep school's reputation.

RTKangaMummy · 02/02/2006 20:38

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

GDG · 02/02/2006 21:19

I'm with you Kanga - it's exactly what happens round here and it's exactly why people pay for private primary education. The private schools have a practically 100% entry rate into the grammar schools - I don't believe every one of those children is suited to that school - children are all different, how ever well off their parents are.

Tbh, the whole thing scares me sh**less! 6 yrs till ds1's turn though, 2 yrs later for ds2, 1 yr later for ds3 - I'm gonna be a nervous wreck!

Our alternative if they don't pass is an 'over my dead body' kind of place!

RTKangaMummy · 02/02/2006 21:42

And for them to say that is not cramming is a joke

why spend a lesson a week on learning how to pass the exams when they could be having an extra lesson in history or ICT or PE??????

The ones that go to DH school they know exactly what happens at these private prep PRIMARY schools and then go for the 11+ exams

And when they get higher up the school you can easily spot the ones that were crammed from these schools

Freckle · 02/02/2006 23:28

The private prep schools thrive on their results in the 11+. That's what encourages other parents to send their children to them.

A child who is unsuited to a grammar school may only find this out once they have been there for a year or two and their failure to thrive certainly won't reflect on their primary school.

Good results for prep schools equals more ££££ from the next set of parents, so it is clearly in their interest to cram children to get the best results.

scienceteacher · 03/02/2006 06:01

That's certainly not the case in my experience. All of our children go onto independent senior schools and the reputation with senior school heads is very important. If you sent someone who turned out to be a dud, the senior school will be less accommodating in the future with your borderline kids, 'late developers', and those with extenuating circumstances. The headteacher's reference is an important part of the process, alongside the test results, so it is vitally important to keep onside.

The key thing is in getting the right kids into the right schools for them. That means only considering suitable schools in the first place, and the prep school can do some amount of pretesting to make sure that they are in the right NFER range etc.

I certainly wouldn't call a 30-minute session on VR/NVR, where all the children do is go through their Bond papers on their own as cramming (a non prep school child can do this at home for far more than 30 minutes a week if they like).

In my experience, all the pressure for unsuitable senior schools comes from the parents, not from the prep school.

Freckle · 03/02/2006 07:06

I agree that the pressure comes from the parents, but it is in the schools' interests to accede to the parents' wishes to a degree or other parents simply won't send their child to that school.

scienceteacher · 03/02/2006 07:36

I know our school makes no promises about future schools when showing prospective parents around. If these parents get the impression that their 3 year old is all but guaranteed a place in a 1st XV school, they are sadly deluded.

What the school does is publish the senior schools that the leavers are heading to - maybe a few Etons and Harrows will be remembered and not the less prestigious ones which are absolutely perfect for the children that are heading there. There is also a scholarship board in most prep schools, but scholarships are given by all senior schools to pupils of varying academic abilities.

snailspace · 03/02/2006 10:17

Message withdrawn

Bink · 03/02/2006 10:26

scienceteacher: a question? - about your reference to accurate pretests. Are these only done as within a school, or do you know of outside outfits who offer them? This is for a 6yo, by the way, for a 7+/8+ move.

frogs · 03/02/2006 10:39

How was your ds's school visit, Bink? Am off to email you now.

Bink · 03/02/2006 10:45

Hi frogs! - won't get e-mail till I get home tonight. Look forward to it.

Ds didn't make the grade (see guilt posts here ) so I am concerned about exactly those parental illusions scienceteacher mentioned. He's in some ways so very ahead of his class (maths in every way, the only one writing cursive independently etc. etc.) that now I'm back to being totally confused about where he stands & what to do with him.

frogs · 03/02/2006 11:13

Ah, Bink, my email has been overtaken by your post didn't realise the school had (clearly) not had the vision or foresight to perceive his talents! Or more likely -- couldn't be bothered with someone whose personality and intellect is a bit left-field.

SueW · 03/02/2006 13:07

Round here (Notts) where there are not grammar schools, parents of children in prep schools unassociated with senior schools will, so I understand, be advised on the best senior school for their child. That may be one which is academically selective e.g Nottm Girls' High or Boys' High, but there are others that aren't so heavily academic (although these also get much better exam results than the comps in the area).

I think for those of you in areas where children are sent to prep schools but will be able to move to state schools at 11 because there are good (grammar?) schools around, might have quite a different experience.

Jennypog · 03/02/2006 16:30

Thank you science teacher for your reply. My little girl also went for an interview at a school and they actually asked her what other tests she had sat. She was very honest and gave the headteacher a list of all the tests she had sat! I was cross with the school, TBH. They would never have asked me the same question. What can I read into this? Does it mean they won't offer her a place? Does it mean that they really, really want her and are afraid to lose her to another school? I just wondered what your take would be on this.

RTKangaMummy · 03/02/2006 16:47

The schools all seem to ask which other schools the children have tried for

One of DS friends was asked if she wanted to go to their school {independant} or grammar and she said Grammar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO it is unfair to ask the children

Jennypog · 03/02/2006 16:51

Well, actually I am really glad that they didn't ask her that question, because I know she would have said the grammar school because her big sister goes there. I am only wondering, because they didn't ask my other daughter the same question when she went for the interview. May be I read more into this than necessary, it just seemed odd to me.