What is an appropriate amount of contact

[CherryOnTop11]

Me and hubby have split, it's been very messy and upsetting for me and my DC (DD8 DS15)

Since then I've sorted the divorce papers, the finances and have basically been left to look after the kids by myself (luckily I have two amazing parents who have helped loads!) while he has moved in with his manager from work and her kids.

On advice from my solicitor I wrote out an informal contact arrangement. As my stbExH works shifts I've agreed that he can pick them up from school every other Thursday and then drop them home at about 6.30pm and also every other Saturday 10am-6pm. So basically once a week he sees them.

He's asking for more but he lives with a woman who destroyed our family so the kids do not want to see her, plus with her kids there is no room for them for stopovers or anything. He has nowhere to take them in the evenings to cook for them, except his sisters who is a 25 minute drive away, so it would be takeaways/meals etc, and Iike to make the most of the weekends I have with them as I'm so stressed from work and everything else, the time I do have with them in the week is just stressful.

I have made it clear to him that if he was to get a flat/house not too far away that I would be happy to sort out more contact and share their care but he seems to be set on staying at this woman's house.

He's setting up mediation and then if that doesn't work to go to court he said (even though with the cost of it he could probably sort a place to live and we wouldn't need it)

Is the contact enough? I've spoken to the kids and they seem happy with it. They're tired after school and both have clubs etc they go to so to disrupt their life because he chose to leave doesn't seem fair. Am I right here?

[LikeARedBalloon]

Threads like this always make me feel so sad for the children. I am your child, 20 years on. 20 years of bitterness between my parents, my mum hating 'that woman', my dad referring to my mum as 'the witch', utterly awkward handovers, silently wishing they wouldn't start the slanging matches in front of me. Feeling that I couldn't ask to see my dad more because my mum hated the woman he left her for so much.
I know it's hard and I know it's a shit situation for you OP.
As an adult I now find myself in a similar situation. However my child will always see me and my ex being amicable. They will always be able to ask for extra contact. I will never allow them to feel that knot of fear in the stomach when mum and dad have to have contact. They are the only ones that suffer from all this bitterness.

[MintyCedric]

I can totally understand how you feel, but realistically I'm not sure how likely it is your position would hold if it came to court.

How about putting something in place that states this is what you do for now but you will commit to reviewing the situation in 3 - 6 months when the dust has hopefully settled a bit.

It shows willing on your part and it may be that circumstances change or your children feel better about their relationship with their dad.

I left my XH in 2016 and he sees our daughter Tues/Thursday one week and Tues/Saturday the next. He was emotionally abusive and that has always been enough for her. She's stayed overnight with him twice, once in our former home and once recently in the home he shares with his partner, who he met a few months after I left him.

Different circumstances around the break up but I more or less dictated terms initially because of his previous behaviour.

As incredibly hard as it is, it will pay if you can try to be flexible going forward, although I agree you that now is not necessarily the time that.

[CherryOnTop11]

So your advice is too allow them to go and stay in that woman's house? So what happens if he cheats on her then moves in with someone else in 6-12 months? More upset for them? I don't see what is unreasonable about waiting? Seeing how it pans out? If I had a string of boyfriends moving in and out, I would then be put down for that, and that's not something I'm going to do. My kids need me to be the grown up here, not out chasing pointless relationships like he is, had been doing for god knows how long (there's been more than one woman)

I am amicable in front of the kids with him, I do not slag him off and I allow my eldest to text/ring and sort his own contact out. I ask my daughter when she wants to see dad again, and she's happy with thursdays/saturdays right now. She rings him, but sometimes texts him as she's not too good at talking on the phone, she forgets of things to say so I sit with her and encourage her to tell her about what she's been up to. I keep him updated with everything that happens in their life as best I can. But he refuses to meet with me and discuss anything, so how can I fix that? Just let them go and pray there's not going to be another round of drama that I have to hold them through? Another load of lies and hurt from the very person who should be protecting them with me? He's demanding mediation and court but if he just spoke to me and we could come to an agreement then it wouldn't be needed. He works much less hours than I do, has more money and someone beside him to support him, yet he can't face me and discuss the future of his children, or even give them a chance to tell him what they want.

I just want what's best for both of them, and I know they need their dad, and they need dad to start putting them first for once.

[CherryOnTop11]

@MintyCedric the agreement does state that it will be reviewed in three months, my solicitor advised that. I'm not saying this is forever, it's just right now while I'm still trying to get them through all this.

[Shookethtothecore]

You are angry and hurt and I totally get your point I really do. But the advice you are getting here is pretty standard from what a court would allow. They would allow the children to go to their aunts or this new woman’s house to spend time with their dad. Men do a lot worse and still get granted similar access. It sucks, but people are trying to help you.
Talk to your son about expressing his feelings to his dad. That might make him see the impact it’s having

[MintyCedric]

Well in that case I think he really should respect that he has made his choice and needs to allow everyone else (who had no choice) a little time to come to terms with the situation.

My DD was 11 when we split and is 14.5 now. She speaks to her dad every day and we both manage to be a bit flexible if needs be, although she arranges anything with him 99% of the time.

As you've already acknowledged, in the long term more regular/overnight contact would benefit you as well. That's never happened for us and believe me it's bloody hard at times.

Tbh though, it doesn't sound like your ex has any intention of changing his living arrangements and you may have to be prepared to work with that at some point in the future.

[JaneEyre07]

With all due respect, OP, this other woman didn't destroy your family, your ex did. Don't let your anger destroy you in the process.

Stop trying to control the situation, and let your kids decide when how and where they want to see their Dad. They are old enough.

It's not your place to dictate how he lives his life anymore.

[Littleraindrop15]

Op I think you need to take this through court because your not making rationale decisions and everyone has told you that many hours currently allocated is not enough yet you are still determined to push back on this.

Your letting your anger affect the kids

[SixDot941]

From the way you've reacted to strangers who were not criticising you. If I was your xh I wouldn't meet you either. It would be a pointless endeavour. You are so very entrenched in how you feel that you can't see the wood for the trees.

I'm going to suggest a different tact. That you go to counselling to deal with the anger issues that are arising because of the divorce. If you don't want it to be because you need to reduce your anger to effectively deal with your split then do it because all that anger of yours will damage your kids. Angry people accidentally hurt the people around them, they make illogical decisions, they are impulsive, difficult to communicate with, they engender a climate of anxiety in their loved ones. Your children, even if you don't think they deserve a father, do deserve an emotionally balanced, functioning, happy mother. I don't think you'll disagree on that point.

Be the best you that you can be. One with integrity, dignity, morality. That was the advice my solicitor gave me and it served me very well in my divorce.

[Dillydallyingthrough]

OP I understand you are trying to protect their feelings, but you can tell you are angry and it wouldn't take much for a judge to think you are projecting your feelings onto them.

If it went to court, he would probably say he was forced to agree the no intro to partners and to be brutally honest a judge would say you can't control who he sees in his time. Sleeping on airbeds is considered to be acceptable EOW, meeting the ow is deemed acceptable, staying at his home with her is deemed acceptable.

It's likely that if it goes to court he will get a MINIMUM of EOW and midweek contact - he could get a lot more.

I would agree this now (including overnights) rather than go to court as that depends on who you get on the day and how sympathetic they are to the father

Sending you because it is shit, but you will get through this.

[FreckledLeopard]

I'm afraid if he does split with his new partner and moves elsewhere then that will be none of your business. Your bitterness towards him can't come at the expense of your children's relationship with him.

It's not for you to dictate what he can and can't do. They are his children and if he considers that they can spend time with his partner and her children then that's his call, not yours.

If you can avoid dragging this through Court and all the hurt that will go with it, then I'd seriously consider giving him more time with his children. I know it's a god awful situation but try and be the bigger person, as much as you may feel justified in keeping them away from him.

[CherryOnTop11]

I am taking on board what you're all saying. Please understand that this is just for now, while me and the kids are still adjusting. I'm considering how to up to two contacts a week, I really really do not want overnights in a strangers house for them this soon after the split, and it's not like he'll take any notice of their questions or anything, based on how he's behaved recently. I do not want some unknown woman looking after them right now. They need familiarity and people who love them while the adjust, not strangers and being forced to get on with kids they don't know. I don't give a toss what he does, he's an awful person and I'm starting to realise I'm glad she has to put up with him now. But I do care about what my kids are going to be forced to do by him and her. Im raising them, all on my own. I know them inside and out, and I know that it is no good for them RIGHT NOW.

Why everyone is so quick to just force my children into these difficult situations, without an adjustment period. None of you have held them while they cry. None of you have faced their questions. Damn right I'm angry because he doesn't give a shit about all that. He thinks because he has moved on, then the kids should just accept it. And it seems so do all of you? Can there not be a settling in period for them? Introduce it all slowly?

This came out of nowhere for them, they're still reeling. But yea let's ship them off to a strangers house and tell them tough.

[RandomMess]

All I can suggest is that you day to ex "they aren't ready yet, give them time, pushing it will back fire"

Remain very measured and reasonable and support your DC whilst being positive about increasing contact to hopefully a few more hours on an additional day. I think the less he perceives you as fighting it the more he will tho k he is winning and there isn't a battle.

At the moment I suspect he sees it as him and OW against the world and he wants to be victorious in battle... basically being a selfish knob.

[Dillydallyingthrough]

OP Im not saying it's right. Many of the PP have been through the exact same situation and supported their children through the tears and uncertainty.

What everyone is telling you is what would happen if it went to court. He would get increased contact, his living arrangements would be deemed suitable, he would be allowed to take them to the Ow house - no-one is saying any of this is right.... It's more about being realistic in what could happen in court. Like I said earlier I would consider EOW now before court when he could end up with substantially more. Then it gets difficult as if you don't facilitate contact he could keep breaching you, there are many cases of repeated breaches ending with a chance of residency for the children.

I'm not saying this to scare you, more accept they will spend time with ow and consider increased contact now before court.

[2018anewstart]

Just want to say I know exactly how you feel and I don't think anyone can say what to do unless they have actually been in this situation. There is no right level of contact I think each situation is entirely different and there shouldn't be a one size fits all assumption. If the children are happy with level of contact as it is I see no reason to change it I think contact should be guided by children. However i agree with everyone else I think the court will look to give more. I dont think this is right in all cases. I certainly don't agree with sleeping on an airbed if they have a bed they can sleep in. Most adults wouldn't want to do it yet we expect children to do it. also I am amazed by the number of men and women who leave their families but put the iw or om rather than children first.

[2018anewstart]

Currently going through court now and have said I want the childrens wishes to be put first. I really hope that is what they do. Will let you know.

[Doyoumind]

You would come across very badly in court, OP. I have been in the family court several times so I do know how it works and you could find yourself in a very tricky situation. The 15yo wouldn't be covered by an order but the 8yo is too young to have a say and the court will decide a strong relationship with the father is important. They don't care who he's living with unless there are very serious safeguarding issues.

[SpareASquare]

Your children take their cues from you so OF COURSE 'they' don't want to see the OW. You are feeding them all of your anger and hurt and disappointment and there is NO WAY they would ever say they do want to go whether they want to or not. I'm sure you know this.
Whilst I can totally understand your anger, it's your wish to control that will do just as much damage because you are actually damaging your children as well even if you don't realise it.
I've actually stated in the agreement that neither of us can introduce new partners to our children until they have been in a relationship for at least 6 months and they have to consult the other parent
That is scary controlling.

If this goes to court, you will not come off well at all.

[soberfabulous]

This thread is extremely eye opening. I can't believe that men can act so badly, wreck a family, and then kids have to schlep around and stay with strangers when they don't want to, on orders of adults!

OP I am totally with you on this and am truly surprised by the responses here. I've never been through a split so this was all new information to me.

You are clearly a strong; caring mum and your children will know and see this. Good luck.

[Hellywelly10]

How long has he has once a week contact? How has it gone? I think once a week for the moment sounds ok. The op has said it will be reviewed in a few months and her children are ok with this arrangement, however being ok with it may not be the same as what they want?

[curtaintrail]

You are clearly a strong; caring mum and your children will know and see this.

^^ This.

I totally get you, OP. I recognise the need to protect your children from even more instability and hurt. I'm familiar with the sheer exhaustion around being left to do everything alongside a FT job and the utter unfairness of you having so little time for yourself whilst he swans around playing new happy families.

I think a pp has a good idea in saying to tell him 'they need more time to process the change that's happened'. Tell him it's still so very raw to them - that you've no objection to contact increasing in the future but that it must go at their pace or the risk is that the kids will be very uncomfortable and it will create more of a distance between him and them - and that this is the last thing you want.

Don't get angry (even though you'd be entitled). Present it to him as it being about their wellbeing for contact to be incrementally increased at a level acceptable to them. I think the children seeing the dad around other kids, living in a new home may feel like they're having their noses rubbed in it re him having left them and so quickly replaced his own family. It may well exacerbate their sense of rejection.

Also, I agree that activities and club attendance are critical for keeping an impression of stability for them. They need this in the sea of change that they've been thrown into. They need their friends and a routine to stay in place to anchor them.

I feel for you, I really do. It's shite. It's unfair and you have no additional mental space at the moment to deal with the extra layer of fallout this might bring.

But - don't go to court and lose. Try and negotiate locally with him.

Do your kids do something every Sunday? Perhaps he can take them to a museum or bowling on his own to start with?

[CherryOnTop11]

@soberfabulous It's shocking isn't it? The kids have barely got their head around all this, but are expected to accept this new family? My 15yo won't be forced, but my 8yo who is very clever, very perceptive, she could be and it's not fair at all. I do g want her squeezed into that woman's house like a spare part. She's worth more than that.

@Hellywelly10 We he only reappeared a few weeks ago, so not long, and I'm thinking over the next few weeks we start to come to a more rounded agreement as they get used to the whole thing. He's very difficult to talk to though.

@SpareASquare how is waiting six months to meet new partners 'scary controlling'? I'm just trying to avoid my kids having to meet every bit of skirt that flashes a smile at him, and also give him the courtesy of speaking to him if and when I allow another man to enter their lives (remember any man I meet would see them far more so if anything that is to his benefit). Or are you the type that jumps into new relationships and drags your children along for the ride, to hell with his they feel. I'm not controlling who he sees I'm making sensible decisions for the benefit of my children.

I have offered him twice a week, adding Tuesday to the weekday, and the Sunday afternoon to the weekend (they both enjoy a lie in, this is the only reason why) but have asked him to contact me so we can work around her pony stuff on that day. I'm sticking to my guns on the overnights right now, I don't care if they hate her because of me, they still don't want to stay there and it is too soon anyway to be introducing new partners. They need to feel like the only priority to both of us, how will that work if they see him with his new family?

He's read the message and hasn't replied since. This is how bothered he is by his children, how much he wants to see them.

[slipperywhensparticus]

With the best will in the world stop! Dont sit with your 8 year old encouraging her to tell her dad stuff dont keep him updated about the children's life unless it affects his contact (illness etc) if you need to tell him it's a quick text tell him once ie x has swimming Thursday dont forget kit tell him this once dont remind him re the other woman......kids are more flexible than we think they will get used to it and if his shifts really dont allow more contact than he is getting then what the hell can you do?

Go to mediation with an open mind your 8 year old shouldn't be dragged through the courts your 15 year old they cant really touch

Your right he needs to sort his shit out and you need to separate the cunt he is from the fact that he is the father to your children

[slipperywhensparticus]

Is he paying via cmo? I hope you have run a check to make sure your getting all your entitled to from him and everyone else

[Strictly1]

I know it hurts but he left the marriage, not his children. You cannot dictate what he does or who he sees. Please don't use your children as weapons - it never ends well.
I am really sorry for what you are going through but see hurt children in my job. The mum comes in and is adamant that the children think x, y and z and when you speak to them they often don't. They feel they're being forced to choose between the two people they live the most. The two people who should make them feel safe and loved.