What is an appropriate amount of contact

[CherryOnTop11]

Me and hubby have split, it's been very messy and upsetting for me and my DC (DD8 DS15)

Since then I've sorted the divorce papers, the finances and have basically been left to look after the kids by myself (luckily I have two amazing parents who have helped loads!) while he has moved in with his manager from work and her kids.

On advice from my solicitor I wrote out an informal contact arrangement. As my stbExH works shifts I've agreed that he can pick them up from school every other Thursday and then drop them home at about 6.30pm and also every other Saturday 10am-6pm. So basically once a week he sees them.

He's asking for more but he lives with a woman who destroyed our family so the kids do not want to see her, plus with her kids there is no room for them for stopovers or anything. He has nowhere to take them in the evenings to cook for them, except his sisters who is a 25 minute drive away, so it would be takeaways/meals etc, and Iike to make the most of the weekends I have with them as I'm so stressed from work and everything else, the time I do have with them in the week is just stressful.

I have made it clear to him that if he was to get a flat/house not too far away that I would be happy to sort out more contact and share their care but he seems to be set on staying at this woman's house.

He's setting up mediation and then if that doesn't work to go to court he said (even though with the cost of it he could probably sort a place to live and we wouldn't need it)

Is the contact enough? I've spoken to the kids and they seem happy with it. They're tired after school and both have clubs etc they go to so to disrupt their life because he chose to leave doesn't seem fair. Am I right here?

[soberfabulous]

But he DID choose a women over the children, didn't he? He chose to break up the family. He could have worked at it, had counseling...it sounds like he just upper and left?

A friend of mine's husband has just done this and moved to another country without a backward glance. If a woman did this they'd be lambasted. Men walk away from their children and it's accepted.

[blahblah789]

and i don't want them forced into more hurt and confusion because he chose her over them. No way

This is a disgusting thing to say. He chose her over you NOT them

[ScarletBitch]

@soberfabulous I know I agree with you, how not just men but how anyone can cheat, break their families up etc still get to live happily ever after with OW, whilst the rest of us are picking up the pieces.

Until I was cheated on I would of said exactly the same as you. Our responses to OP are not made out of being nasty, but from personal experience. I absolutely understand the hurt she is going through, it's shit isn't it?

[SpareASquare]

@SpareASquare how is waiting six months to meet new partners 'scary controlling'? I'm just trying to avoid my kids having to meet every bit of skirt that flashes a smile at him, and also give him the courtesy of speaking to him if and when I allow another man to enter their lives (remember any man I meet would see them far more so if anything that is to his benefit). Or are you the type that jumps into new relationships and drags your children along for the ride, to hell with his they feel. I'm not controlling who he sees I'm making sensible decisions for the benefit of my children
No you're not. I'm sure you know that. It's just easier when you can package up your 'issues' with "for the benefit of my children"
You simply do not want them to meet THIS "bit of skirt" Totally understand that. I've been in your very position. I just worked really, really hard at doing the best I could for the children regardless of how I felt and I felt every bit of bitterness you do. BUT, what he did with the children was his business and that included who they saw. I can think of a million different things far worse than dad having a new 'friend' every couple of months.
I went the opposite, despite your petty little dig. I chose not to have a relationship for a long while because I made a conscious decision that my children never felt second best with me. I never interfered in their relationship with their father and that included grilling them when they came home. I never tried to make sure they liked me best and backed me up. Was tempting though. lol
Years down the track and they have a very superficial relationship with their dad. I think more out of obligation than any deep feelings. I, however, have a very close and loving relationship with them.
You will NOT win at court so I suggest you think really hard about what you are doing. Some counselling probably wouldn't go astray either.

[ScarletBitch]

@CherryOnTop11 you are angry with bloody good reason but please listen to us. We have all been through similar situations to yours and I can guarantee this was me 3 years ago when my EX H cheated on me leaving me to bring up our 3 DC. I fully get yours and your kids hurt, believe me i do. I too was adamant my kids were not going anywhere near her and certainly not staying over.

This went on for a year and I was angrier than I have ever been. What changed was seeing my youngest change his story when he spoke to his dad, because he thought I would be mad at him. This broke my heart. I realised my then 5 year old had picked up on my anger and was stuck in the middle trying not to upset me, but I could see he so wanted his dad.

So as much as it killed me inside I could not put my kids through this.

Please listen to reason. Go to mediation, that's there to help you as much him. You wanting to speak to him will not bring any solution or give you the answers you want to hear. It's your Ex that broke your family up. He was the one who made vows to you, not the OW.

If it helps why not suggest he takes your DD to her activity's, let him cook in your house, you then have time to go out away from him to clear your head.

I know it hurts like hell, but believe me you don't want to go through Family Court.

[NorthernSpirit]

This is so sad.

I’m now with a man who has 2 children (I wasn’t the OW he was divorced when I met him).

The mother treats the children as ‘her’ possessions. Has tried to control who the father introduces the children to. Stopped contact due to her control.

The father took her to court after 2 years of her control and preventing contact and they now have a very defined contact order.

He’s had her back to court 3 x for breaches.

And all to see his own children who he loves.

And you know what? There are no ‘winners’. They can’t co-parent as she is so bitter and vitriolic after 6 years of divorce and the fact he dared ‘drag’ her through court.

The kids are starting to figure it all out themselves. The oldest (now 14) is seriously screwed up because of this. And is starting to realise that her mum (who she loves) constantly bad mouths her dad and won’t ‘let’ her see him. The icing on the cake was a birthday not so long ago were she wasn’t ‘allowed’ to speak to her dad on her birthday as it didn’t fall on a court ordered indirect (telephone call) contact day.

So very sad that bitterness has allowed this.

Don’t be that person.

[LemonTT]

OP, not in anyway dismissing your feelings or that of your children but some of the argument you make would equally make justification for him to receive a nice slice of the marital assets. Because if he needs a nice flat or house of his own and a bedroom for each of them now. He will need that in the future.

Luckily a court won’t necessarily agree with that now or in the future. But don’t make his case for him. If you must insist on restricting contact you should do it because of the need to adjust. But this should take weeks not months.

Personally I don’t agree that you should be limiting his contact or setting conditions. He is equally their father. Even if they don’t like or respect him now they will love him. For that reason he will always be in their lives. So you need to decide if you want to make that difficult for them or not. Bear in mind they may find that more stressful than anything else. The OW doesn’t really matter to them. Your interactions with their father does.

[heidiwine]

I hope that for the sake of your kids this ends up in court.
You are deliberately obstructing and controlling their relationship with their father.
My Mim did this. I can’t tell you the damage it caused.

[Shookethtothecore]

Nope I have been I your situation exactly. This is why you should listen to what people are telling you because you won’t win this in court.
If this is temp, just keep saying, no I’ve asked the children and they don’t want to because of xyz and they want you to do xyz if that’s what the children want. Don’t push anything let him do all the court pushing etc and try to just let this settle down a bit.
I get the impression you feel this only happened to you, with all due respect it happens to millions of women and men and people are giving you good advice. Good luck

[Strictly1]

I know it hurts but he left the marriage, not his children. You cannot dictate what he does or who he sees. Please don't use your children as weapons - it never ends well.
I am really sorry for what you are going through but see hurt children in my job. The mum comes in and is adamant that the children think x, y and z and when you speak to them they often don't. They feel they're being forced to choose between the two people they live the most. The two people who should make them feel safe and loved.

[slipperywhensparticus]

Is he paying via cmo? I hope you have run a check to make sure your getting all your entitled to from him and everyone else

[slipperywhensparticus]

With the best will in the world stop! Dont sit with your 8 year old encouraging her to tell her dad stuff dont keep him updated about the children's life unless it affects his contact (illness etc) if you need to tell him it's a quick text tell him once ie x has swimming Thursday dont forget kit tell him this once dont remind him re the other woman......kids are more flexible than we think they will get used to it and if his shifts really dont allow more contact than he is getting then what the hell can you do?

Go to mediation with an open mind your 8 year old shouldn't be dragged through the courts your 15 year old they cant really touch

Your right he needs to sort his shit out and you need to separate the cunt he is from the fact that he is the father to your children

[CherryOnTop11]

@soberfabulous It's shocking isn't it? The kids have barely got their head around all this, but are expected to accept this new family? My 15yo won't be forced, but my 8yo who is very clever, very perceptive, she could be and it's not fair at all. I do g want her squeezed into that woman's house like a spare part. She's worth more than that.

@Hellywelly10 We he only reappeared a few weeks ago, so not long, and I'm thinking over the next few weeks we start to come to a more rounded agreement as they get used to the whole thing. He's very difficult to talk to though.

@SpareASquare how is waiting six months to meet new partners 'scary controlling'? I'm just trying to avoid my kids having to meet every bit of skirt that flashes a smile at him, and also give him the courtesy of speaking to him if and when I allow another man to enter their lives (remember any man I meet would see them far more so if anything that is to his benefit). Or are you the type that jumps into new relationships and drags your children along for the ride, to hell with his they feel. I'm not controlling who he sees I'm making sensible decisions for the benefit of my children.

I have offered him twice a week, adding Tuesday to the weekday, and the Sunday afternoon to the weekend (they both enjoy a lie in, this is the only reason why) but have asked him to contact me so we can work around her pony stuff on that day. I'm sticking to my guns on the overnights right now, I don't care if they hate her because of me, they still don't want to stay there and it is too soon anyway to be introducing new partners. They need to feel like the only priority to both of us, how will that work if they see him with his new family?

He's read the message and hasn't replied since. This is how bothered he is by his children, how much he wants to see them.

[curtaintrail]

You are clearly a strong; caring mum and your children will know and see this.

^^ This.

I totally get you, OP. I recognise the need to protect your children from even more instability and hurt. I'm familiar with the sheer exhaustion around being left to do everything alongside a FT job and the utter unfairness of you having so little time for yourself whilst he swans around playing new happy families.

I think a pp has a good idea in saying to tell him 'they need more time to process the change that's happened'. Tell him it's still so very raw to them - that you've no objection to contact increasing in the future but that it must go at their pace or the risk is that the kids will be very uncomfortable and it will create more of a distance between him and them - and that this is the last thing you want.

Don't get angry (even though you'd be entitled). Present it to him as it being about their wellbeing for contact to be incrementally increased at a level acceptable to them. I think the children seeing the dad around other kids, living in a new home may feel like they're having their noses rubbed in it re him having left them and so quickly replaced his own family. It may well exacerbate their sense of rejection.

Also, I agree that activities and club attendance are critical for keeping an impression of stability for them. They need this in the sea of change that they've been thrown into. They need their friends and a routine to stay in place to anchor them.

I feel for you, I really do. It's shite. It's unfair and you have no additional mental space at the moment to deal with the extra layer of fallout this might bring.

But - don't go to court and lose. Try and negotiate locally with him.

Do your kids do something every Sunday? Perhaps he can take them to a museum or bowling on his own to start with?

[Hellywelly10]

How long has he has once a week contact? How has it gone? I think once a week for the moment sounds ok. The op has said it will be reviewed in a few months and her children are ok with this arrangement, however being ok with it may not be the same as what they want?

[soberfabulous]

This thread is extremely eye opening. I can't believe that men can act so badly, wreck a family, and then kids have to schlep around and stay with strangers when they don't want to, on orders of adults!

OP I am totally with you on this and am truly surprised by the responses here. I've never been through a split so this was all new information to me.

You are clearly a strong; caring mum and your children will know and see this. Good luck.

[SpareASquare]

Your children take their cues from you so OF COURSE 'they' don't want to see the OW. You are feeding them all of your anger and hurt and disappointment and there is NO WAY they would ever say they do want to go whether they want to or not. I'm sure you know this.
Whilst I can totally understand your anger, it's your wish to control that will do just as much damage because you are actually damaging your children as well even if you don't realise it.
I've actually stated in the agreement that neither of us can introduce new partners to our children until they have been in a relationship for at least 6 months and they have to consult the other parent
That is scary controlling.

If this goes to court, you will not come off well at all.

[Doyoumind]

You would come across very badly in court, OP. I have been in the family court several times so I do know how it works and you could find yourself in a very tricky situation. The 15yo wouldn't be covered by an order but the 8yo is too young to have a say and the court will decide a strong relationship with the father is important. They don't care who he's living with unless there are very serious safeguarding issues.

[2018anewstart]

Currently going through court now and have said I want the childrens wishes to be put first. I really hope that is what they do. Will let you know.

[2018anewstart]

Just want to say I know exactly how you feel and I don't think anyone can say what to do unless they have actually been in this situation. There is no right level of contact I think each situation is entirely different and there shouldn't be a one size fits all assumption. If the children are happy with level of contact as it is I see no reason to change it I think contact should be guided by children. However i agree with everyone else I think the court will look to give more. I dont think this is right in all cases. I certainly don't agree with sleeping on an airbed if they have a bed they can sleep in. Most adults wouldn't want to do it yet we expect children to do it. also I am amazed by the number of men and women who leave their families but put the iw or om rather than children first.

[Dillydallyingthrough]

OP Im not saying it's right. Many of the PP have been through the exact same situation and supported their children through the tears and uncertainty.

What everyone is telling you is what would happen if it went to court. He would get increased contact, his living arrangements would be deemed suitable, he would be allowed to take them to the Ow house - no-one is saying any of this is right.... It's more about being realistic in what could happen in court. Like I said earlier I would consider EOW now before court when he could end up with substantially more. Then it gets difficult as if you don't facilitate contact he could keep breaching you, there are many cases of repeated breaches ending with a chance of residency for the children.

I'm not saying this to scare you, more accept they will spend time with ow and consider increased contact now before court.

[RandomMess]

All I can suggest is that you day to ex "they aren't ready yet, give them time, pushing it will back fire"

Remain very measured and reasonable and support your DC whilst being positive about increasing contact to hopefully a few more hours on an additional day. I think the less he perceives you as fighting it the more he will tho k he is winning and there isn't a battle.

At the moment I suspect he sees it as him and OW against the world and he wants to be victorious in battle... basically being a selfish knob.

[CherryOnTop11]

I am taking on board what you're all saying. Please understand that this is just for now, while me and the kids are still adjusting. I'm considering how to up to two contacts a week, I really really do not want overnights in a strangers house for them this soon after the split, and it's not like he'll take any notice of their questions or anything, based on how he's behaved recently. I do not want some unknown woman looking after them right now. They need familiarity and people who love them while the adjust, not strangers and being forced to get on with kids they don't know. I don't give a toss what he does, he's an awful person and I'm starting to realise I'm glad she has to put up with him now. But I do care about what my kids are going to be forced to do by him and her. Im raising them, all on my own. I know them inside and out, and I know that it is no good for them RIGHT NOW.

Why everyone is so quick to just force my children into these difficult situations, without an adjustment period. None of you have held them while they cry. None of you have faced their questions. Damn right I'm angry because he doesn't give a shit about all that. He thinks because he has moved on, then the kids should just accept it. And it seems so do all of you? Can there not be a settling in period for them? Introduce it all slowly?

This came out of nowhere for them, they're still reeling. But yea let's ship them off to a strangers house and tell them tough.

[FreckledLeopard]

I'm afraid if he does split with his new partner and moves elsewhere then that will be none of your business. Your bitterness towards him can't come at the expense of your children's relationship with him.

It's not for you to dictate what he can and can't do. They are his children and if he considers that they can spend time with his partner and her children then that's his call, not yours.

If you can avoid dragging this through Court and all the hurt that will go with it, then I'd seriously consider giving him more time with his children. I know it's a god awful situation but try and be the bigger person, as much as you may feel justified in keeping them away from him.

[Dillydallyingthrough]

OP I understand you are trying to protect their feelings, but you can tell you are angry and it wouldn't take much for a judge to think you are projecting your feelings onto them.

If it went to court, he would probably say he was forced to agree the no intro to partners and to be brutally honest a judge would say you can't control who he sees in his time. Sleeping on airbeds is considered to be acceptable EOW, meeting the ow is deemed acceptable, staying at his home with her is deemed acceptable.

It's likely that if it goes to court he will get a MINIMUM of EOW and midweek contact - he could get a lot more.

I would agree this now (including overnights) rather than go to court as that depends on who you get on the day and how sympathetic they are to the father

Sending you because it is shit, but you will get through this.