Do you go into the FWR ? And what's your general impression as a man ?

[MrGin]

Just that really. I have a young daughter so I'm interested in some women's issues, I find you can't generally post in there without getting accused of one thing of the other.

< prepares for glacial responses possibly followed by mass invasion >

To be honest, I never really see what people mean by "ganging up" on a forum. If I disagree with someone, I'll say so, if a lot of other people also disagree, it doesn't mean we're ganging up on them.

I suppose the FWR section had/has a fairly rarified atmosphere, a bit stylised where it is fairly easy to attract negative attention IF one doesn't employ the correct vocabulary. If you're a male this has been held against people on occasion as further evidence of their 'misogeny' and oppressor role, when simply they're diction was at fault.
As Boney says, the genuine trolls lack stamina.

I really should have used a different example. Genuinely didn't mean to stir, sorry.

Lurking - you're right though - other women posting there have stated they have been 'discouraged' in posting there eg Leningrad, and SGM amongst others. I think a lot of it has cooled down now, though someone was complaining the other day it's become more boring. Like FWR posting should be an Olympic event.

Admit it, you'd watch it if it was an Olympic event!

MN vs F4J.

I don't think it's become more boring at all. I think it's become more respectful, you can actually have a conversation without it descending into chaos.

I think that a feminist is anyone who thinks that men and women are equal and should be treated equally. Sadly, there are not as many of those people as there should be. I think it's a bit sad that there even has to be a feminist section, just as we should never have needed a civil rights movement.

Anyway, I think a lot of posters like people joining in the discussions, whether male or female. I certainly think it's great that parents consider the impact of gender roles on their children.

Mr gin you could try reading 'Cinderella ate my daughter' or 'the Cinderella complex'. Both address the role of Disney pink in the lives of young girls.

I would do links but that would mean going to the laptop and I am being kneaded to death by a needy cat. (boom tish)

And Pan, I heart you completely, but you should learn to spell myso misogeny misogeny misogyny.

Or is my iPad wrong?

Boom tish

Folk saying that the FWR section can get a bit hairy are right, and that applies to women too. There is a very small minority of radfems who sometimes express themselves in a way that makes you think that if you don't agree with them you're not a Proper Feminist. But that's bullshit, if you think women and men should be equal, you're a feminist and the rest is details.

It takes some backbone to ignore them sometimes, but ignoring is the only way forward because I've found arguing debate is useless. They start using bigger and more complicated words until you're so baffled you don't know whether you're coming or going.

The majority, though less shouty and thus less obvious, are welcoming, and diverse in their own personal feminist philosophy. They realise that their own philosophy is just that - their own - and don't try to shout down anyone who disagrees.

I'm a radfem and I so agree on the big words! I find myself using Google: Define way too often.

It can get lairy in there, that's when I avoid posting.

I think that part of the problem is the range of ideas. If there was a section about Communism, you'd find a range of people from those who've read every political treatise on this, to those who just think it must be nice to share.

The same is true in FWR. Since going on that board I have been reading a lot more fem. writing, and there are some things that are just 'givens' if you've read the lit. Other people are just talking about their own ideas and experiences. It can make debate difficult as people are coming from such different backgrounds, even if they agree on what they want to say.

e.g. the concept of 'other'. If you've read Simone de Beauvoir then you get what is meant when someone says 'you're just saying that because you see me as other'. If you haven't read it, or don't know the concept, then that sentence doesn't even make sense. It's frustrating for both sides when trying to discuss along those lines.

I try to cite (or at least know the author, if not full ref.) of some things, but that can sound very condescending.

Sorry, Gin, I hope this feels like a discussion and engagement with your main point, not an invasion.

And yes, in every political arena, there will always be some who just like to be shouty, but I don't think that feminists are alone in that.

would it be worthwhile putting together a list of "given" things then those that know could point the rest of us in the direction of the list.

But and its a big but it would have to be put together by those in the know.

Boney, the problem with that, and it's been said countless times in FWR, is that it is no-one else's responsibility but your own to educate yourself

you don't go into the Litter Tray (for example) and say "so, what's the basics of them pussies then ?"

you would quite understandably be told to "go and read a book" wouldn't you ?

why would you expect feminists to be any more patient, understanding and willing to take you through the "givens" than anyone else ?

I don't think the problem is that people don't want to educate. Plenty of people on FWR (and the animal sections of MN) seem to be more than happy to give advice and basic education.

I think the problem is that there are very few givens in feminism. You might have someone saying "pornography is abuse" as a given, and a lot of liberal feminists going "hold on, no it's not."

Causes more problems than it solves.

Well, I've read a few books, and think I understand what people mean when they use the word 'other' but would hesitate to give a succinct and meaningful summary.

I don't think that any kind of ideology/politics can be summed up with a crib sheet like that, but there are books on it. I've got a little spiral bound thing that's like a one page summary of the main 'thinkers' in feminism.

As in any discussion, I think people should try to be aware of how knowledgeable they are and try to defer to someone who at least sounds like they know what they're on about.

People's opinions are always valid, but a lot of us have some experience of knowing/being female, and a few people then think they have the right to push their opinions even when they are only opinions, and they obviously have done little research/reading on the matter.

The same happens in 'education'. Lots of people have their own pet theories, and think that they must be right, just because they have experienced education. Even as a teacher, my experiences are fairly meaningless as they're statistically invalid. If someone was on an education board who appeared to know a lot of the latest research etc, I would defer to their better knowledge, not just keep spouting my own experiences. It doesn't mean my experiences were any less real for me, but they don't help much (except as witty anecdotes) when discussing the theories of education.

Mmm, not sure I agree about deferring to someone who sounds like they know what they're on about.

I think that's a really interesting issue, how people 'sound' when they're knowledgeable/authoritative. There are all sorts of ways of expressing yourself that imply authority and they're all quite different. If you use debate-club rhetoric, lots of complex Latinate syntax and long words, you might sound authoritative to one person; another would just find it confusing or would think you were being pretentious. If you use jargon like 'patriarchy', again, some people will appreciate you for using a term that has a precise frame of reference to them; others will not understand what's meant or will react against jargon because jargon is implicitly exclusive.

Personally, my hackles do rise when someone expects different treatment because of the way they think they sound - it happens a lot in my real life.

I know not everyone finds it easy to put good ideas into words that will be clear to lots of people (I really don't), but I don't think it's a good idea to judge content by how authoritative the speaker sounds.

I'm meaning more when someone can give stats or references rather than form of expression, compared with someone who is just going off personal experience.

So, 'if you read ... And look at this survey' rather than 'all my friends do this'.

I hang out on education and fem (and other places) and find that often people put personal experience over any kind of statistical evidence.

Ah, fair enough.

I know I'm rubbish at citing statistics, but often notice people citing statstics badly, so I may be biased!

MNsFavouriteManHater
I'm not advocating you educating myself or anyone else.

but somw pointers would be nice

There was a Feminism 101 thread at one point. Did that die a death ?

Never mind, it was probs trolled by MRA-types. Silly me.

What pointers did you want, boney? I'm not very well read but I can probably point you in the right direction - just googling works for me, too, you'll find lots of blogs and I just click through until I find one saying something interesting.

TBH I'm not sure what I want :)

Its more a case of being able to ask when something comes up and google brings 50,000 results.

I pretty much do the blog thing as well.

Fair enough, I know what you mean. I think the problem is, 'when something comes up' tends to be in the middle of discussions, and it's not rocket science to realize people tend to be, well, in the middle of discussions then. It's like in a pub - I don't jump into the middle of animated discussions about football to ask what the offside rule is. By the time the discussion is over, I've usually forgotten what the heck I was asking (and so I still languish in ignorance of that particular one), but, well .... if I cared enough I'm sure I'd remember another time.

(I'm not saying don't ask stuff, I think often during discussions some kind soul does take a break to go through the 101, but it's not fair to expect it). It's human nature, it's like if in my pub conversation I broke in to make a comment that showed I didn't know what I was talking about, even people who'd usually be fine with sitting me down to explain the basics are likely to want me not to spoil what they're in the middle of.