Doesn't it all come down to 2 choices ?

[disorganisedsecretsquirrel]

A gazillion (and 1) threads about Covid.. but in essence does it not boil down to 2 simple choices.

1. Live a completely normal life, with kids in school /at Uni, people socialising exactly how they wish but knowing that this choice WILL kill a higher percentage of people dead before they otherwise would be..

OR

1. We stop . Just Hunker Down. To the bare minimum through winter. Until the spread is decreased to negligible levels. With the economy / mental health and education taking the hit. For six months. ? But fewer deaths.

As far as I can see. Those are the stark choices.

Which would you do ?

[SheepandCow]

New Zealand and Australia are protecting against Covid AND treating other health conditions.

We're an island like them.

[IceCreamAndCandyfloss]

@SheepandCow

We could have relative normality by Christmas if we wanted to use our island advantage, like NZ and Aus did. One to two months lockdown now, then open up but borders closed for up to a year (obviously excepting freight and emergency travel, which could have proper quarantine). Unfortunately I don't think enough of the public or government have the sense or foresight.

How do you expect a normal life with an infectious disease spreading unchecked? Widespread mental health issues due to bereavement and fear, loads of people off sick for months and facing permanent disability from Long Covid?

Agree re being an island and closing the borders.

Remote education for the next term at least to stop the mass gatherings, employers letting those that can wfh do so, stricter measures and enforce them at social venues and no large crowds at sports events etc. Give incentives to supermarkets and local food business for extending home delivery slots so more can use.

We could then catch up on the treatments missed for non Covid issues as the nhs would have less cases and likely less flu cases too.

[Derbygerbil]

It’s a ridiculous false dichotomy...

It’s a bit like saying:

Cars? Surely the only two choices are:

Either we ban them completely because some people die;

Or we just let people drive how, when and where they want - no rules! Drive fast, drunk or whatever side of the road you choose!

[Wavescrashingonthebeach]

@PhilSwagielka

Your feelings are valid, you have a right to feel them and express them. I hope you feel better soon

[HeyMacarona]

PhilSwagielka

Hope you’re doing ok

[CoffeeandCroissant]

Well obviously there is a middle ground between avoiding serving rare pangolin steaks to anyone 80 but otherwise carrying on as if the virus doesn't exist or shutting down the entire economy because somebody sneezed.

[CoffeeandCroissant]

*anyone over 80

[Waxonwaxoff0]

There is a middle ground to be had. But if those really were the only choices then I'd choose 1.

[Quartz2208]

Your son didnt kill your neighbour. Complications from COVID did. It is as simple as that

@SheepandCow yes we should be using our Island advantage in terms of borders. But that is where the comparison ends. Our population density is very different to New Zealand and Australia. As is actually our ability to shut our borders down in quite the same way

@disorganisedsecretsquirrel you cant think of this as a black and white choice because it isnt. It is balancing act of grey. Loosening here, tightening there

[Userzzz]

Option 1. I don’t know any elderly people that support option 2. Most of them want their lives back as well, and are appalled at the measures the younger generations have to endure “for their sake”.

[ReeseWitherfork]

Does NZ actually have a long term plan? I’m not saying they don’t, I’m just saying I haven’t seen one so am curious.

[Derbygerbil]

@SheepandCow

Life definitely isn’t “normal” in Victoria, Australia!

[MarshaBradyo]

Quartz / Derby

Do you think U.K. could have done the same as NZ acting on the first case?

I’m not convinced. And less so if we acted now.

But I always think your posts are v sensible so would be interested to hear what you think

[Derbygerbil]

Option 1. I don’t know any elderly people that support option 2. Most of them want their lives back as well, and are appalled at the measures the younger generations have to endure “for their sake”.

If we genuinely now did Option 2, it’s not going to health service or the economy any good. We’d be taking a massive and reckless punt that we wouldn’t have a repeat of March later in the autumn... and if there’s no way as a society that we will all act and spend normally in such a situation. A more nuanced approach is better for everyone.

[SheepandCow]

[quote Derbygerbil]@SheepandCow

Life definitely isn’t “normal” in Victoria, Australia![/quote]
It's a hell of a lot more normal than over here! And it will be back to normal a lot sooner than us too. They're taking sensible action to nip it in the bud. So that they can join the rest of Australia in normality. My family in South Australia are living normally. Schools, offices, hospitals, events, all up and running.

It's not too late to do the same. It won't be as good as doing it from the start but it's better than nothing. It's the difference between a normalish starting to recover and properly reopen December, or get to December and still be having the same dragged out nothing's really ok or normal what do we do debates. Unfortunately I know it will be the latter.

[SheepandCow]

@Userzzz

Option 1. I don’t know any elderly people that support option 2. Most of them want their lives back as well, and are appalled at the measures the younger generations have to endure “for their sake”.

Elderly people are making the greater sacrifice. At their age they have much less time to lose. They won't get a chance to make it up. But most I know are happy to make the sacrifice for the sake of their children and grandchildren. They want to protect them against potential lifelong disability and economic destruction. They're also concerned about the millions of vulnerable younger people.

[InsaneInTheViralMembrane]

@ReeseWitherfork

Does NZ actually have a long term plan? I’m not saying they don’t, I’m just saying I haven’t seen one so am curious.

A unicorn will descend from heaven to administer a vaccine to all.

[Derbygerbil]

@MarshaBradyo

Thank you!

The U.K. would have had to have acted a couple of weeks or so earlier than it did for it to have done so at the same stage of its epidemic as NZ did. That would have meant a NZ style lockdown in late February.... I really don’t think that was a realistic option.

People only responded the way they did because they felt under threat... We can see the same thing now - people aren’t very good at making sacrifices as a preventative measure. People will make excuses until people can no longer ignore reality. NZ locked down as things were exploding in Europe and the North-East US. They felt a similar threat even if, objectively speaking, they were well behind the curve.

[Derbygerbil]

@SheepandCow

In South Australia, yes... In Victoria, definitely not.

[Derbygerbil]

@SheepandCow

Apologies, please ignore my last post - it made no sense.

[Holyrivolli]

@SheepandCow. If the old people you know want a hard lockdown then that’s totally up to them but it is for entirely selfish reasons. Don’t try to kid us that they’re doing it for altruistic reasons to protect the young who don’t actually need protected. The virus barely affects the young - even with your talk of long covid it has been proved time and time again that the main risk factor is age. Another general lockdown on the other hand will devastate the economy of which the young will carry the heaviest burden.

[SheepandCow]

NZ, like the rest of the world, managed just fine before frequent mass travel. It's only been a thing the past forty or fifty years.

They don't need to rush to reopen their borders (they're allowing freight and emergencies).

There almost certainly will be a vaccine by next year but meanwhile life goes on with temporary restricted borders. It's better for the environment too. Extinction Rebellion were mass gathering in our cities last week (but brownie points given to them for mostly wearing masks). Last year, governments, corporations, and the world's media agreed with XR that climate change is an urgent issue. Less travel for a temporary period is hardly a bad thing.

[VioletCharlotte]

@Oly4

Option 2 for me, it’s only a year and there will be a vaccine by end of next year. I’m happy to bunker down to avoid mass death

I'm assuming you live in a comfortable home where you have everything you need to 'bunker down'?

Would you be saying this if you were a single mum, living in a high rise flat with 3 kids off school? You can't go to work as I childcare so trying to exist in UC?

Or how about if you were living with an abusive, alcoholic husband?

Or a severely disabled child with no support or respite care?

Or if you were elderly and lived alone with no family near by?

There are so many reasons why full lockdown is not a solution for a prolonged length of time and will ultimately lead to more deaths and illness. As others have said, we need to find a middle ground.

[MarshaBradyo]

[quote Derbygerbil]@MarshaBradyo

Thank you!

The U.K. would have had to have acted a couple of weeks or so earlier than it did for it to have done so at the same stage of its epidemic as NZ did. That would have meant a NZ style lockdown in late February.... I really don’t think that was a realistic option.

People only responded the way they did because they felt under threat... We can see the same thing now - people aren’t very good at making sacrifices as a preventative measure. People will make excuses until people can no longer ignore reality. NZ locked down as things were exploding in Europe and the North-East US. They felt a similar threat even if, objectively speaking, they were well behind the curve.[/quote]
Completely agree. I have posted the same thing a few times. Glad I’m on the same page!

[Londonmummy66]

Well if you won't accept that there is a middle ground then it's option 1 for me and the elderly and vulnerable can take a decision for themselves on how they choose to live....