Is it ok to see family in the garden social distancing ?

[starrynight19]

Just that really if we stick to the 2m guidelines.

[PotholeParadise]

2m is perfectly fine outside for conversation, it's only indoors that it might be insufficient and that would only be where people are symptomatic and coughing/sneezing.

The 2m guidance was paired with a recommendation to avoid being within 2 metres of someone for 15 minutes or more.

I agree with amelietaylor that if you are going to be chatting, even outside, with someone for more than 15 minutes, it's worth giving it an extra metre or two.

[santababby]

I can’t see a problem with it if you are socially distancing

[FliesandPies]

Pothole, all the guidance on distancing is tailored around the idea that you might be interacting with someone who is symptomatic - as I said above, coughing or sneezing so expelling viral particles into the air.

I would assume that by now anyone with such symptoms has the sense to isolate themselves from others and certainly not socialise, even if they're not sure it's Covid.

[Inkpaperstars]

Flies

Particles can travel further than 2 m on occasion, they can also,of course remain in the air for several hours if aerosolised. What the infection risk is in situations like that, I don't know.

However, since asymptomatic people are thought to be infectious, surely the distancing is aimed at them too. If not, and if everyone could be relied upon to isolate with symptoms, then the advice would not have been put in place. You don't need to cough or sneeze to spread it. Talking can do it and even breathing, although obviously coughs and sneezes are worse.

[Inkpaperstars]

Also, I think the whole 2 m, 15 minutes advice is not about preventing all transmission. There is still risk, just less risk and so by advising that the govt hoped to reduce transmission by enough for their purposes.

If I had to visit someone higher risk and their garden was only big enough to allow for exactly two metres, I would rather stay on the street and further away.

[FliesandPies]

You don't need to cough or sneeze to spread it. Talking can do it and even breathing, although obviously coughs and sneezes are worse

You don't actually know that though, because this is new and it hasn't even been established yet whether it is airborne or not.

My point still stands that the distancing guidance refers to symptomatic people who are projecting the virus out. Asymptomatic people will not be doing so because, not having symptoms, they will not be coughing/sneezing.

If breathing/talking is a risk then 2m will be quite enough of a distance as the virus is not being projected out by force.

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

If I lived within walking distance of my family I would, as long as you maintain social distancing it’s far less risk than supermarkets and diy shops

[excitedmumtobe87]

Flies

Why not stay further just in case?

What’s the big deal?

When you don’t know about something it is surely better to err on the side of caution.

Do otherwise if you please but it’s irresponsible to encouraged others to do so.

[excitedmumtobe87]

In the op’s case I’d see them if on a walk past but 3-4 metres away because it’s prolonged and if rather be over sure than under sure.

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

Is the 3-4 metres rule (you’ve just made up) based on some scientific fact you’d like to share with us plebs and the government scientific advisors?

[FliesandPies]

Do otherwise if you please but it’s irresponsible to encouraged others to do so

I'm not encouraging anyone, just putting my points and the OP is an adult and able to take their own decisions. If you have to keep 3 or 4 or more metres apart then it's going to be pointless (if you even have the space for it) and you will not be making yourself any safer because you are already safe. If you don't feel safe don't do it and that's that.

What’s the big deal?
The big deal is communication, some sort of normality, reassurance, support - these are crucial things for most people, not insignificant extras that can be postponed week after week, not things to be degraded by unnecessary panic.

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

@fliesandpies you sound completely reasonable. Mental health and supporting vulnerable people is just as important right now. Some people seem to think this can somehow wait until the crisis re Covid-19 is over

People can be concerned about both though and take measures to ensure loved ones are safe from both. Ignoring made up ‘rulez’ and using the set guidance

[Inkpaperstars]

Yes, I mean don't err on the side of caution. After all, two and a half or three metres will prevent your visit from being beneficial to people's mental health. I imagine they couldn't make out who you are or hear a word. If you have to stand at 2m 10 cm frankly why bother going at all?

You say I don't know about to being transmitted through breathing or being airborne. No, I dont know and I cannot be bothered to search for a link at this time, but I can assure you that I only make a mental note of things I would repeat like that if I have heard them from an official or expert source, usually backed up by others too. So likely someone who knows better than either of us.

Anyway, do what you like, have at it. I don't care to be honest.

[Inkpaperstars]

Just to clarify airborne is not a term I used, I think they are pretty confident this is not airborne in the sense that measles is for example. I guess when particles are aerosolised and hang about before settling they are temporarily airborne in a sense but I do not know whether a scientist would use the term for that situation.

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

@inkpaperstars

Anyway, do what you like, have at it. I don't care to be honest.

I’ve never understood why people post anything and then follow up with a childish tantrum like statement

Either you do care, in which case back your thoughts/views with facts. Or you don’t care, in which case why post in the first place?

This middle response seems like, you know you are in the wrong and can’t prove otherwise so you want to leave in a huff in the hope people will think you are hard done by

[Inkpaperstars]

No pigeons, I should have said I don't care anymore. I have been trying to learn and put out reliable information but I should not have bothered. There is no point engaging with people who have not done the same and have their own agenda. My capacity to care has been worn down.

I am not in the wrong unless the experts guiding us are, I am very confident I have not posted anything controversial and I do make every effort to inform myself and only post things I have gleaned from respectable sources. If I don't want to trail around cross referencing right now for someone who doesn't seem interested in facts please forgive me.

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

@inkpaperstars I’m sorry you are so upset by this. The only guidance we’ve been issues is 2 metres for social distancing. Most people can hear and chat to each other at such a distance, and it will make a huge impact on their mental wellbeing

I am sorry though you feel misheard

[Inkpaperstars]

I am upset, maybe it is silly. But I do feel misheard, thank you for recognising that!

Chris Whitty has said in his lecture on the 28th that it can travel beyond 2 m sometimes. The govt advice isn't intended to totally safeguard individuals, it is to get the overall case numbers down enough for their purposes, in as practical a way as possible. I don't see much harm in allowing a bit more than 2 m with a vulnerable relative.

It also has been said that asymptomatic people who are not coughing and sneezing can spread the virus through breathing, talking etc.

I know it's bad form to reference another thread but Flies did basically state elsewhere that she and people round her are coming out of lockdown and if the govt want to look like they are in control they had better pretend that is their plan too. So it doesn't seem like she is likely to care that much about the facts. Maybe she has decided asymptomatic people definitely don't spread it so if the govt want to look like they are in charge they better announce the same conclusion.

It would test the patience of a saint surely. But I should have had a tantrum and a mini flounce! Anyway, thank you for your understanding pigeons.

[Inkpaperstars]

Should not have!

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

@inkpaperstars have you also read all the articles about how outdoors the transmission rate is far lower. Therefore factually people standing 2 metres away on their driveways is probably excessive.

I can completely understand your worrying, however please don’t let it effect your mental health. Try and read some of the positive news stories too, there’s so much negative around right now.

Remember you can’t control other people, and whatever they choose to do they will do even if you don’t know about it. You can only make your own choices

[Inkpaperstars]

Pre symptomatic spread indicated (Whitty has also spoken of this I think)

'High transmissibility of COVID-19 before and immediately after symptom onset suggests that finding and isolating symptomatic patients alone may not suffice to interrupt transmission'

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2765641

I am quite a fan of Michael Osterholm after seeing him interviewed several times, who feels that transmission through breathing is confirmed, see below

www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/03/study-highlights-ease-spread-covid-19-viruses

Further info and discussion

edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/aerosol-coronavirus-spread-white-house-letter/index.html

www.sciencealert.com/is-coronavirus-spread-by-talking-and-breathing

www.livescience.com/covid19-coronavirus-transmission-through-speech.html

[Inkpaperstars]

Cross post, yes I have pigeons, that is encouraging

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

@inkpaperstars I’ll read the posts you added when I wake up, Goodnight though and try to get some sleep x

[Inkpaperstars]

Don't feel you need to pigeons, just there in case anyone wants to reference.

Sleep well.

[EricaNernie]

yes, i take shopping to my dm, i wear gloves, she makes tea, with the warning to put the cups straight in the dishwasher.
afaik i do no have the virus.

her neighbours may be secretly critical but none of them have offered her any help whatsoever