Reasons why people die when the economy tanks - a list ?

[LaurieFairyCake]

I keep seeing this phrase 'have to balance length of lockdown with deaths due to recession'

So, how do people die because of recession ?

1. Suicide due to poor mental health because of poverty

And?

[EmMac7]

I read an article in the Telegraph yesterday that claimed the cabinet was concerned that the population had been too compliant and that consequently we were likely to get a second wave in Autumn (and also the economy was suffering too much).

Basically they still want herd immunity. So the spin doctors plan to start banging on about these indirect deaths from an economic downturn as a way to convince the population that it’s appropriate to ease restrictions.

I’d bet the farm Chris Whitty starts raising this again next week. Whilst there is of course some truth to it, the indirect effects are very difficult to quantify.

[scaevola]

It's not so much that anyone wants herd immunity.

It's just that the only way to stop outbreaks of this disease is to have enough restistance in the herd to prevent it taking hold. That is herd immunity, and can be achieved either by vaccination (which is months/years away) or by enough people having the disease.

An uncontrolled spike in case numbers would lead to more deaths (NHS overwhelmed) with consequent loss of other health services (greater than amount already taken out, plus many more deaths of HCPs, which has significant impact on ability to rebuild services after - likely to be worse than after a lockdown/controlled peak)

Also if no lockdown/controlled peak, there would be a couple of 'lost months' when nearly everyone had it (wrecking business even more effectively than lockdown), with catastrophic MH consequences from the distress of death on that scale, little means to alleviate suffering of the terminally ill, and bodies unburied because even emergency mortuaries overwhelmed. Plus the immediate lasting social effects of how people would seek to survive when all normalmsupply began to fail.

And of course, the world would not escape the recession/depression would follow the months of devastation.

There isn't a particularly happy ending either way. But flattened peaks is quite possibly the least damaging approach, because then only some economic sectors fail, and the numbers of deaths (including for indirect and post-pandemic deaths) are likely to be less. Not hunky dory, but least worst.

[BubblyBluePebbles]

I think the list is well and truly covered 😱Any more to add to the list MM people?

[HandfulOfFlowers]

Increased crime rates caused by desperate people, eg fights that escalate to stabbings and burglaries that go wrong and someone ending up getting killed instead.

[Clevererthanyou]

Why did I click on this thread for a little light reading before bed? If the virus doesn’t kill me (I’m high risk, several factors apparently) then my mental health will because of the medication I take. If I’m lucky enough to stay alive I’ll lose everything and endure a depression/recession and watch my life fall apart because all my clients have left the company I work for and I will have no job (mostly because my boss is a wanker who is risking our lives tbf). Yay for Valium.

[Verily1]

Poverty kills- overcrowding, homelessness, mental health, poor diet, lack of exercise, increase in crime, stress, air pollution, dampness in homes, lack of hope.

[Gingerkittykat]

@Clevererthanyou Stick around and I'm sure someone can tell you all about the bad things benzos can do to your body!

[Flaxmeadow]

The less well you eat and live, the worse your health. This means poor people are more at risk from heart disease, diabetes, mh and hypertension amongst other things.

Women in poverty often turn to sex work, which is dangerous. Children often feel pressured to help and end up involved in County lines set ups.

Sorry but I find this a bit insulting. The idea that people who are poor don't know how to cook properly or that poor women will "often" turn to prostitution

Do you have a source for this "often" claim?

[Flaxmeadow]

Basically they still want herd immunity

Has the government ever used the term herd immunity?

[Gingerkittykat]

People living in poverty have less access to fresh food than people who are more affluent.

Have you ever wandered around the corner shop and seen an abundance of fresh fruit and veg and affordable lean protein?

[EmMac7]

@Flaxmeadow

Yes, Patrick Vallance, the CDO, did at least once:

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-millions-of-britons-will-need-to-contract-covid-19-for-herd-immunity-11956793

[EmMac7]

*CSO

[Flaxmeadow]

Have you ever wandered around the corner shop and seen an abundance of fresh fruit and veg and affordable lean protein

Poor people don't use corner shops. They use supermarkets like everyone else

The reason corner shops don't have fresh produce is because they make their money on alcohol and tobacco. The tinned goods etc are there because they're not purchased often

[Namechangervaver]

Has the government ever used the term herd immunity?

Yes they have. Loads of times. Took me two seconds to find this video. It's about 3-4 mins in

[Flaxmeadow]

Yes, Patrick Vallance, the CDO, did at least once

But where? The news report you linked does not show him.

I can't remember any of the govenrment saying it but it keeps getting repeated in quotes as if they say it all the time

[LilacTree1]

Cleverer Valium is the only thing calming my fears about being homeless etc.

I hope these issues get more prominence in the coming days, though ideally they would have done before lockdown so people knew what the plan was.

[LilacTree1]

I don’t think government used it but implied it

Or let others take it from their original “don’t go on cruises and we cba contact tracing”.

Good article here

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-herd-immunity-uk-boris-johnson/608065/

[Flaxmeadow]

Yes they have. Loads of times. Took me two seconds to find this video. It's about 3-4 mins in

He doesn't even say "herd immunity" though

[LaurieFairyCake]

They absolutely said it in the first broadcast I think (Johnson did)

It may also have been the next but they dropped saying it very quickly

[LilacTree1]

Oh hang on

Did Johnson say it on This Morning or something? Was all this prior to daily briefings?

It’s been a long month 🤦🏽‍♀️

[Millicent10]

There has already been an increase in domestic violence, people stuck in a house all day with violent partners will continue even if the lockdown is lifted due to job losses, low income. Unfortunately more women and children are likely to die because of this.

[EmMac7]

Vallance mentioned it specifically in a briefing, as referenced in that Sky interview.

If you are any doubt this was their policy @Flaxmeadow I would recommend this excellent, detailed Reuter’s article on the evolution of the U.K. authorities response:

mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN21P1VF?

[Canyousewcushions]

@flaxmeadow
Some poor communities don't have a supermarket which is easy to access. People who are really struggling for cash are less likely to have access to a car, or spare money for a bus fare (although even on the bus they are limited to what they can carry). I know of areas which are desperate for a supermarket so that local residents have more affordable food.

Fresh fruit and veg is also not cheap, especially if you want a varied diet. And the cheapest forms of meat protein are usually the most highly processed stuff in the shop, because the lower quality meat can be used to make them.

It's not so much an assumption that cash strapped people can't cook, more a reality that higher quality food is less available if you are living with serious levels of deprivation.

[theculture]

And also living and poor quality housing/hostels that don't have the facilities to cook or can't afford to run the cooker etc meaning that it's much harder to use the healthier ingredients than cheap processed microwave food

[BreathlessCommotion]

@Flaxmeadow I didn't say poor people couldn't cook. I said in hostels there aren't proper cooking facilities. Or if you can't afford much electricity you can't run the oven for long periods (or at all). And there are evidenced studies that the cheapest food (that won't risk going off) is the highly processed stuff.

And if you don't drive or can't afford a car how do you do a big shop at the supermarket? Maybe bus, but the buses where I am are very expensive and not very regular. And don't stop anywhere near a supermarket.